The Challenge: Choosing a Patek AD to work with. How does one choose?

[daOnlyBG]

Originally Posted by azizu

instead of buying pieces from other brands to be taken seriously, why don't you just get the 5196P and ask for a discount?
that way you will have entered in patek world and started building your name with the AD and the company. because with patek, there are application pieces and they need to know what other patek you purchased to be considered in your application
there are excuses you can use to justify the discount, i have one in mind but lets see if you can come up with one

I didn't know that you could ask for a discount with Patek Philippe pieces- perhaps I'm asking the wrong ADs. One Chicagoland AD in particular had a 5170 in the display case a while back, and the SA volunteered (yep, didn't even ask about price) to me that they couldn't discount it, because "it's discontinued and rare." It's still in their showroom.

A halfway decent discount sounds enticing. The problem I have (and apparently I'm not alone, based off other posts in the forum) with the 5196P is that the current iteration leaves much to be desired, namely its small movement, lack of sapphire caseback to admire the movement, and (for my preferences, anyway) a manual-wind movement. I'd like to think that enough collectors have voiced a preference for a revamped 5196P that the company might eventually update it or something (imagine how amazing a microrotor would be in that movement!). If I'm ready to pull the trigger then, sure- I'd ask for a discount of sorts.

So how would one ask to justify a discount?

I'd point to the secondary prices and say "if you want me to continue buying here, I can't feel like I'm being fleeced once I step outside the showroom," which I think beats out "For $40K, I'd rather buy a preowned Datograph."

What's your suggestion?

[azizu]

Originally Posted by daOnlyBG

I'd like to think that enough collectors have voiced a preference for a revamped 5196P that the company might eventually update it or something (imagine how amazing a microrotor would be in that movement!). If I'm ready to pull the trigger then, sure- I'd ask for a discount of sorts.

with patek philippe the DNA of the reference is very important in my opinion, if it pays tribute to a historical reference that is desirable then chances are it will be collectable in the future.
for instance ref 5270 pays tribute to 5970 which pays tribute to 3970 which also pays tribute to 2499 which is the descendent of the historical 1518 ref (all have the same DNA).
similarly ref 5172 was superseded by 5170, 5070, 1463, 530, 130 etc.
what makes ref 5196P very special in the current line up is that it pays tribute to historical ref 530 which is very rare and highly collectable
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rBM7uwE2Bw

[azizu]

Originally Posted by daOnlyBG

So how would one ask to justify a discount?

I'd point to the secondary prices and say "if you want me to continue buying here, I can't feel like I'm being fleeced once I step outside the showroom," which I think beats out "For $40K, I'd rather buy a preowned Datograph."

What's your suggestion?

I don't think threatening them to take your business to grey market or ALS would work, it might actually back fire on you.
From the long relationship i developed with my AD, i learned a few things that help me negotiate better.
1- I think Patek Philippe ADs have ZERO % discount policy on nautlius, aquanut and application pieces. so avoid asking for discounts on these.
2- The patek philippe salon (in Geneva, London and Paris) have ZERO % discount policy i believe. but i was told that you could claim back the tax at the airport when you leave the country. so that is between 5-8% of the MSRP and there is no reason why you shouldn't ask for the same discount from MRSP from your US AD on the purchase since there is no tax back program in the US.
3- The exchange rate between CHF and USD fluctuate and sometimes that could be to the buyers benefit. I believe the watches are priced in CHF and when the CHF is too strong you can ask for a discount to offset the difference in exchange rate. compare the CHF and USD prices in March 2020 and Feb 2021 and you will see a considerable difference.
4- if you start having business with the AD and they view you as a collector, then the is no harm in asking for a collector preferred pricing

those are some ideas that could help

[Codik]

Is any if you is looking to buy a world timer and take a big loss, please pm, I find Patek world timers sublime and will gladly relieve you of the burden.

[daOnlyBG]

Thank you for your responses- here, I'll try to address them each, one by one... haha.

Originally Posted by azizu

with patek philippe the DNA of the reference is very important in my opinion, if it pays tribute to a historical reference that is desirable then chances are it will be collectable in the future.
for instance ref 5270 pays tribute to 5970 which pays tribute to 3970 which also pays tribute to 2499 which is the descendent of the historical 1518 ref (all have the same DNA).
similarly ref 5172 was superseded by 5170, 5070, 1463, 530, 130 etc.
what makes ref 5196P very special in the current line up is that it pays tribute to historical ref 530 which is very rare and highly collectable
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rBM7uwE2Bw

Yep, I remember that clip- but the 5196P is actually based on the 570, as mentioned in the video.

Though yes, I imagine Patek Philippe does tend to stick close to the original, do they not slowly increment improvements into a model's lineage? I remember, for example, there being a Nautilus with a hacking movement, etc. Did the first 3700 have a transparent case back? etc, etc.

Originally Posted by azizu

I don't think threatening them to take your business to grey market or ALS would work, it might actually back fire on you.
From the long relationship i developed with my AD, i learned a few things that help me negotiate better.
1- I think Patek Philippe ADs have ZERO % discount policy on nautlius, aquanut and application pieces. so avoid asking for discounts on these.

Wouldn't dream of it. Discounts are basically given to anything that sits in a case, as far as I know; a customer wouldn't have leverage if they're outright asking an AD to source something (application or allocation).

Originally Posted by azizu

2- The patek philippe salon (in Geneva, London and Paris) have ZERO % discount policy i believe. but i was told that you could claim back the tax at the airport when you leave the country. so that is between 5-8% of the MSRP and there is no reason why you shouldn't ask for the same discount from MRSP from your US AD on the purchase since there is no tax back program in the US.
3- The exchange rate between CHF and USD fluctuate and sometimes that could be to the buyers benefit. I believe the watches are priced in CHF and when the CHF is too strong you can ask for a discount to offset the difference in exchange rate. compare the CHF and USD prices in March 2020 and Feb 2021 and you will see a considerable difference.
4- if you start having business with the AD and they view you as a collector, then the is no harm in asking for a collector preferred pricing

Thanks. So for points 2 and 3, we're looking at... approximately a 10%-ish discount, at best. As for point 4, I imagine if the AD knows me from past deals (be it Rolex, Omega, Breitling, Jaeger-LeCoultre, etc) they'll have an idea that I'm a collector and could continue to spend with them.

If they're convinced I can spend more at a certain "collector discount," perhaps they'd see the value in counting on one particular spender every year or whatever.

[David001]

Originally Posted by jfriedkin

I don't think you can go wrong with an AD. Patek has TOO much at stake to have AD that ignore their customers that just walk through the door. The fact the you have ZERO knowledge is the very best thing you have going for you. Let them educate you on what to buy (their best interest, not yours), ALL ADs want to build a relationship with new buyers. Call an AD, make an appointment. If I were you, I would look at everything they have in the showcase. Those are the models you will be able to buy. Try them All on. Ask a lot of questions and get educated.

Absolutely this ^

If you walk in like a know-it-all they'll tire of you quickly, but go in with what you know and be willing to be educated. If you love watches then that will come across when you look at a piece you like.

I think ADs are probably tired of people coming in waffling away like they're best mates with TS and trying to smarm their way into a hot watch.

[David001]

And as far as I am aware ALS and Patek don't do discounts, I've asked over the last few years and it's always been a no, but they will throw in some nice extras like a leather travel case or pen or something.

[GreenLantern]

Originally Posted by David001

And as far as I am aware ALS and Patek don't do discounts, I've asked over the last few years and it's always been a no, but they will throw in some nice extras like a leather travel case or pen or something.

Several ALS and Patek ADs have discounted in the past, and continue to do so today, too.

At least, in the US.

[David001]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

Several ALS and Patek ADs have discounted in the past, and continue to do so today, too.

At least, in the US.

You may be right, I don't know, I've only ever bought three from an AD and didn't get any discount. I recently looked at a Saxonia Moonphase and there was no discount, but I didn't buy.

[GreenLantern]

Originally Posted by David001

You may be right, I don't know, I've only ever bought three from an AD and didn't get any discount. I recently looked at a Saxonia Moonphase and there was no discount, but I didn't buy.

I am right, sadly (or happily?). I've been able to get such discounts in the past from different ADs, and others on here have, as well.

Search around, there are quite a few threads (some pretty recent) about discounts on both ALS and PP pieces. Obviously not the sports pieces.

[David001]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

I am right, sadly (or happily?). I've been able to get such discounts in the past from different ADs, and others on here have, as well.

Search around, there are quite a few threads (some pretty recent) about discounts on both ALS and PP pieces. Obviously not the sports pieces.

Yes I have heard of it, perhaps thinking about it maybe it's because I've only ever actually bought from the boutique itself, not an independent jeweller who is authorised to sell them, so my terminology of AD wasn't correct.

I have asked for discount, even on a Calatrava, but was told "We're sorry but Patek does not discount". Same in the ALS boutique, they were quite clear about not doing discount on anything.

[ts3]

Originally Posted by David001

Yes I have heard of it, perhaps thinking about it maybe it's because I've only ever actually bought from the boutique itself, not an independent jeweller who is authorised to sell them, so my terminology of AD wasn't correct.

I have asked for discount, even on a Calatrava, but was told "We're sorry but Patek does not discount". Same in the ALS boutique, they were quite clear about not doing discount on anything.

ALS boutiques have not discounted for a while but ALS ADs did and by a lot too.

[CastorKrieg]

Originally Posted by daOnlyBG

Unfortunately, I'm inclined to agree.

The closer I look, the more I struggle to see why one would pursue any relationship with a Patek Philippe AD in the first place (yes, I know- this makes my original question moot). Perhaps 5-6 years ago it made sense, but today, I do wonder- the prices on everything they have in the showcase has at least a $10K instant depreciation, and for other models, even higher. By the time you've spent enough cash on timepieces (let's say, what, 10-12 pieces?) you could have taken your losses and bought the Nautilus you've always wanted.

And someone might suggest that's strategic on Patek's part: they only reel in the world's top spenders, the ones who don't bat an eyelid over dropping a few hundred thousand a year or whatever.

But even to those luxury heavyweights, I do have to ask: what's the benefit of it all? Why not just go grey and save money across the board? After you've spent your $60K-$120K on that 5711, you'll save hundreds of thousands on buying World Times, Calatravas, chronographs, and so forth on the grey market anyway.

Is there a certain piece at the end of the rainbow that suddenly tilts the value equation in the other direction? A $250K piece that's now worth $2.5 mil? Perhaps the opportunity to have a tailored, one-off timepiece? That's not a rhetorical question, but a rather sincere one.

I'll concede that the fact I have to ask that question may betray the fact that I'm simply not ready to take that step, but the question remains anyway. Does the "official" Patek experience only make sense for an extremely small portion of the watch collector base?

It's a well-known phenomenon of scarcity and popularity - people like to feel they belong to an elite club of people that can get any watch they want 'at retail'. Yes, it is much more expensive than buying a single Nautilus second-hand, but these people have the money. I am sure there are plenty of watch nuts in high-society circles that mention to their friends they got a 5711 from a boutique (or even better, a Salon), which is a form social peacocking.

[jon_jon]

Originally Posted by daOnlyBG

Unfortunately, I'm inclined to agree.

The closer I look, the more I struggle to see why one would pursue any relationship with a Patek Philippe AD in the first place (yes, I know- this makes my original question moot). Perhaps 5-6 years ago it made sense, but today, I do wonder- the prices on everything they have in the showcase has at least a $10K instant depreciation, and for other models, even higher. By the time you've spent enough cash on timepieces (let's say, what, 10-12 pieces?) you could have taken your losses and bought the Nautilus you've always wanted.

And someone might suggest that's strategic on Patek's part: they only reel in the world's top spenders, the ones who don't bat an eyelid over dropping a few hundred thousand a year or whatever.

But even to those luxury heavyweights, I do have to ask: what's the benefit of it all? Why not just go grey and save money across the board? After you've spent your $60K-$120K on that 5711, you'll save hundreds of thousands on buying World Times, Calatravas, chronographs, and so forth on the grey market anyway.

Is there a certain piece at the end of the rainbow that suddenly tilts the value equation in the other direction? A $250K piece that's now worth $2.5 mil? Perhaps the opportunity to have a tailored, one-off timepiece? That's not a rhetorical question, but a rather sincere one.

I'll concede that the fact I have to ask that question may betray the fact that I'm simply not ready to take that step, but the question remains anyway. Does the "official" Patek experience only make sense for an extremely small portion of the watch collector base?

You have a fairly accurate assessment. The fact is Patek and their ADs do not want to attract people who are looking to buy Patek for mainly financial reasons. Most of the discussions here on TRF have focused on the financial aspects of Patek watches over the past few years. The forum wasn't meant to be that way. There are other watch forums where the financial discussions are strictly forbidden and watch enthusiasts can more freely discuss the cool features of the watches.

Watch collection is a hobby and with most hobbies, you spend money for the sake of the hobby. If you are mainly focused on the financial aspect, it is no longer a hobby and becomes an investment.

The 5196P is a great watch and you should be able to get it at a discount if you shop around. Patek makes some nice WT watches as well. I own the 5196P as well as several WTs and would not hesitate to recommend them.

[daOnlyBG]

Originally Posted by David001

Yes I have heard of it, perhaps thinking about it maybe it's because I've only ever actually bought from the boutique itself, not an independent jeweller who is authorised to sell them, so my terminology of AD wasn't correct.

I have asked for discount, even on a Calatrava, but was told "We're sorry but Patek does not discount". Same in the ALS boutique, they were quite clear about not doing discount on anything.

Often times, the pieces in the boutique are owned by the parent company itself as opposed to the AD that owns the boutique's physical shop.

There's an ALS boutique in Chicago (very cool place, those in the area should check it out). My understanding is that they're not able to give more than a few percentage points discount, because the pieces are still owned by ALS, and that discount basically comes out of the boutique owner's cut, which is presumably smaller than if at a non-boutique, where the parent company had already purchased the pieces.

[Ichiran]

Try the AD at Hourglass Ginza. @aytystyle just picked up a 6301p there.

[fsprow]

It’s simple. You don’t select the AD, they select you !

[GreenLantern]

Remember the days when the saying "Cash is King" actually meant something?

[martinr]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

Remember the days when the saying "Cash is King" actually meant something?

I do. And the way to “ask” for a discount was to tell the AD “I’m prepared to pay $xxx for that piece”. If they ask for more you say “I’ll think about it”. No begging or ass kissing required.

[GreenLantern]

Originally Posted by martinr

I do. And the way to “ask” for a discount was to tell the AD “I’m prepared to pay $xxx for that piece”. If they ask for more you say “I’ll think about it”. No begging or ass kissing required.

Indeed!

I'm even fine with not getting a discount for hot items, or things I really really want.

But to have to beg you to take my money? That's just weird.

[daOnlyBG]

Originally Posted by jon_jon

Watch collection is a hobby and with most hobbies, you spend money for the sake of the hobby. If you are mainly focused on the financial aspect, it is no longer a hobby and becomes an investment.

I suspect this may be where the disconnect begins to grow between brands like Patek Philippe vs. Rolex.

I don't need (nor do I advocate for) watches for investment's sake; when considering an annualized rate of return, watches can't keep up with the general market- and over a 30+ year period, most won't even keep up with inflation. The few that can (think of your Paul Newmans, your 2499s, Comex dials, etc) were not purchased in in the mid-20th century with that sort of outlook in mind; the astronomical prices were due chiefly to luck and unpredictable events (think Paul Newman wearing a Daytona to a photo shoot).

With that in mind, I can buy a 5196P at the AD for whatever MSRP is- currently I see something close to $40K where I am in the United States.

Alternatively, I can buy one on the grey market for a whopping $15K less- and depending on the grey market network, up to $20K less. At some point, how much is that savings more about "investment" rather than "spending money responsibly"?

Do I have to be profit-oriented (flipping a watch) to avoid taking massive losses? It's one thing if the market value for a 5196P is $30K but I'm asking to pay $24K in the hopes that my material net worth grows slightly. But what if I don't want to pay $40K to lose out on something I could otherwise purchase on the secondary market for $30K?

Assuming I've become a genuine Patek Philippe collector as opposed to just buying a steel model, these premiums begin to add up substantially- multiply $15K (a very low bound on instant depreciation) by what, 8-9 watches?

Never mind "investment"- isn't it outright irresponsible to waste $120K-$135K by overpaying by that much for some "AD relationship"?

And look- perhaps Patek is aware of this reality and prefers it this way, so as to keep the brand's customer base chiefly in the extremely high net-worth bracket- that is, of customers to whom 6-figures of spending on watches is a rounding error. And I'm not offended at all if so- I get it, watches aren't a human right, etc etc.

Hell, perhaps if you've purchased 8-9 watches from an AD at MSRP, you'll be given the opportunity to make some incredible rare application purchases (I'm thinking minute repeaters, celestials, etc) where the market value is substantially higher than the list price. This makes the proverbial pendulum swing in the other direction: suddenly it makes fiscal sense to go that route.

In either case, am I correct in concluding that the Patek Philippe collector base/circle (at least, going through an AD) really is for the top 0.1% earners?

Originally Posted by jon_jon

The 5196P is a great watch and you should be able to get it at a discount if you shop around. Patek makes some nice WT watches as well. I own the 5196P as well as several WTs and would not hesitate to recommend them.

That's great- and when the opportunity comes I will definitely make the move. I really dig the layout and dial of the 5196P and if there was a ratio of fascination-to-simplicity I'd say that it ranks among the highest I've seen among all watches.

At any rate, I do appreciate you taking the time to provide your insight!

[jon_jon]

Start slow and take your time in building a Patek collection. Most Patek "collectors" did not get there overnight. If you can, visit as many Patek ADs and talk to the salespeople, managers and owners. Many are willing to talk about their watch passion once they get beyond the fact you are not a flipper and not there to make a quick buck on a SS Nautilus.
But if you are new to Patek, their guards will be up as literally thousands of people are trying to get in on the SS Nautilus craze and make a buck.

There are Patek ADs that will offer discounts on watches, but you have to find them. The one you visited in Chicago, if you are speaking about Razny, is a good AD. I have visited them many times, as I am sure many other forum members have too. But if they don't discount, shop elsewhere.

Buying a luxury watch and the depreciation you take is part of the experience. If you don't want to take the depreciation, then buy used. Nothing wrong with buying a watch pre-owned from a reputable seller. People ncome back complaining when they haven't done their research on the seller and buy a watch from someone without a lot of feedback and later have a problem with the watch.

Welcome to the fascinating world of Patek Philippe. it is quite different from Rolex for sure

[CastorKrieg]

Originally Posted by azizu

2- The patek philippe salon (in Geneva, London and Paris) have ZERO % discount policy i believe. but i was told that you could claim back the tax at the airport when you leave the country. so that is between 5-8% of the MSRP and there is no reason why you shouldn't ask for the same discount from MRSP from your US AD on the purchase since there is no tax back program in the US.

This is correct - the Salon will never give any discount, what they do for long-term existing customers is obviously bumping them up the list when it comes to hot and difficult watches (Nautilus, Aquanaut, rare handcrafts, limited editions).

Regarding getting your tax back - keep in mind you might be stopped when entering your country and your luggage searched. If so you will pay importation fees and VAT equivalent on your watch. The tax refund station at the airport is located after the passport control, meaning you have no way shipping the empty box and invoice over airmail and just wearing your watch. If you get searched then you are obviously at the mercy of customs' official, and depending on your departure location they are more and more trained to look for watches and other luxury items that are not declared (I heard a few years back with Chinese coming back to China with their LVs - you always buy one extra for the customs' official to let you through).

[Dr Process]

Originally Posted by daOnlyBG

Unfortunately, I'm inclined to agree.

The closer I look, the more I struggle to see why one would pursue any relationship with a Patek Philippe AD in the first place (yes, I know- this makes my original question moot). Perhaps 5-6 years ago it made sense, but today, I do wonder- the prices on everything they have in the showcase has at least a $10K instant depreciation, and for other models, even higher. By the time you've spent enough cash on timepieces (let's say, what, 10-12 pieces?) you could have taken your losses and bought the Nautilus you've always wanted.

And someone might suggest that's strategic on Patek's part: they only reel in the world's top spenders, the ones who don't bat an eyelid over dropping a few hundred thousand a year or whatever.

But even to those luxury heavyweights, I do have to ask: what's the benefit of it all? Why not just go grey and save money across the board? After you've spent your $60K-$120K on that 5711, you'll save hundreds of thousands on buying World Times, Calatravas, chronographs, and so forth on the grey market anyway.

Is there a certain piece at the end of the rainbow that suddenly tilts the value equation in the other direction? A $250K piece that's now worth $2.5 mil? Perhaps the opportunity to have a tailored, one-off timepiece? That's not a rhetorical question, but a rather sincere one.

I'll concede that the fact I have to ask that question may betray the fact that I'm simply not ready to take that step, but the question remains anyway. Does the "official" Patek experience only make sense for an extremely small portion of the watch collector base?

I really liked what you said here.

It’s a real conundrum. But, relatively speaking, this is a nice problem to have...

For what it’s worth, I have heard (so please take with a grain of salt) that Patek will do bespoke pieces for high end clients. Again, total hearsay.

[Rrpdc]

Open your wallet and buy lots of watches in hopes of getting the one you really want. Your almost there and then Patek drops your AD.

[Mini2]

Originally Posted by Codik

Is any if you is looking to buy a world timer and take a big loss, please pm, I find Patek world timers sublime and will gladly relieve you of the burden.

Love them
Wish I bought one 3 years ago at 40k DAMMMMMIT

[knightofgold]

The Hourglass patek’ AD in Hong Kong is very good in terms of services and their staff’s enthusiasm. I have been connected with them last year through a purchase. It is a slow progress to build up the relationship and collection as well ( I am not a big spender).

[jamestucker]

Originally Posted by Mini2

Love them
Wish I bought one 3 years ago at 40k DAMMMMMIT

Now you can buy them for less than 40K

[Fleetlord]

Originally Posted by cascavel

This is the best advice you'll get ^^^^^.
Here are the details of how to do it.
Go into the AD and ask to see a 5227, a 5905, a 5960 and a 5711 (which, of course, they won't have). Don't ask about any other brand, buying those won't help your Patek cause. If they have any of those references in stock buy the two least expensive. A month later go back and buy another Patek. Two months later, repeat this.
After you have purchased at least 6 Pateks tell your AD, nicely but firmly, that you want a 5711/1R.
If this kind of spending is beyond your budget then look for another brand to collect.

+1

Sometimes I read through these threads and I wonder what the expectations are without actually BUYING anything.

You're absolutely right. If a person desires Patek, then go to the Patek AD and start actually buying Patek's...

[Fleetlord]

Originally Posted by cascavel

I think some people actually want all the other pieces and getting the allocation piece is gravy for them. The people who want a Nautilus and try to backdoor this are the ones struggling to make the economics work.

This is a very important point.

There seems to be this perception that the "whales" who get all the "good stuff" are just wasting their money on "undesirable" watches to achieve purchase status.

This is usually not the case. The people spending all the money, like...actually WANT all those Pateks...so spending the money is very, very easy for them as they are committed to the brand and don't see it as wasteful spending at all..

It's very hard to compete against those who are buying many Patek organically, especially if one is only after the "hawt" stuff...