The Official Formula One Thread!

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Rashid.bk

.......has been super vocal laying the narrative he wants people to believe, then.....

Sounds exactly like everything we hear on 'news' channels, and from politicians, and central bankers, and.......

Maybe we should ask Vettel what he thinks

[77T]

Originally Posted by Rashid.bk

…put enough information out there that people keep reading it and accept it as facts and the stewards somehow change their perspective.

That isn’t true…


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[Rashid.bk]

Originally Posted by 77T

That isn’t true…


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Maybe not on this incident in particular, but I think he’s doing it for a reason and directing his dissatisfaction at the F1 administration, it isn’t just to vent and get stuff off his chest. He doesn’t think ten seconds was enough and that Lewis t-boned his driver with the sole purpose of crashing him(my sarcasm inserted) and wasn’t punished correctly.
He’s not doing it just for a Max pity party.

[Sjmoore11]

Just want to chime in and say I’m really enjoying the commentary on this thread. I’m a pretty novice F1 fan (really just got into it last year with it coming back quickly during the pandemic) and I appreciate the knowledgeable debate! Looking forward to this weekend!

[OmegaJJH]

Originally Posted by Sjmoore11

Just want to chime in and say I’m really enjoying the commentary on this thread. I’m a pretty novice F1 fan (really just got into it last year with it coming back quickly during the pandemic) and I appreciate the knowledgeable debate! Looking forward to this weekend!

Don’t think this thread has ever seen a debate rumble on like this before !!


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[77T]

Well it has been a long thread that began with a fan of Sir Lewis Hamilton MBE, HonFREng who opened it. Through several seasons’ worth of debate and through 2017-2020 WDC’s all won by HAM we have had a ball.

Now of course there have been other incidents worthy of lengthy debate - almost 100% respectfully made.

Shifting gears in the lull between GP’s, a blast from the past…back when a driver could debate his penalty while still racing the final 10 laps.

Remember the 2019 Canadian GP?


Now, onto Hungaroring


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[sillo]

[enjoythemusic]

So RBR had plenty of room on his left, yet chose to turn tight in the corner with Mercedes there? Looks almost like RBR was trying to aggressively cut off Mercedes, which is a very dumb move when you factor in cold tires, high fuel load, and simple 101 Driving School education in inertia.

But hey, Mercedes took the penalty dealt them and they still won the race.

I would like to hear what Vettel says about all this, since he has the same type of dangerous driving tactics like RBR.

[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by sillo

Thank you for that graph, the music is very Downton Abby.

The 3D video reinforces what I said at the very outset insofar as VER and LEC were on the exact same line into Copse. VER leaves space for HAM as per the rules and regulations but elected to not use it resulting in HAM hitting the rt rear of VER car with his lt front.

Later LEC is on the same line as VER, leaves space for HAM as per the rules and regulations and this time HAM decides to tuck inside and not risk contact by going toward the apex.

Either


1. LEC was right behind the incident earlier and seen that HAM will not hesitate to knock anyone off track at 180 MPH and opened up his steering wheel which resulting in going off track.

2. That line and arc used by LEC deep into a race will not be sufficient to go around that corner without going into the marbles and subsequently off track

or

3. Two modern day F1 cars will not be able to go through that corner at 180 MPH side by side.

I'll defer to 77T for his opinion. No further witnesses your Honor.

[jatco]

Originally Posted by 77T

Shifting gears in the lull between GP’s, a blast from the past…back when a driver could debate his penalty while still racing the final 10 laps.

Remember the 2019 Canadian GP?


Now, onto Hungaroring


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.
.."Well where am I supposed to go....."

[77T]

That sim of the two different passings at Copse is interesting in that nobody was using optimal line theory through the turn.

Compare where each were, VER HAM LEC compared to this:


That’s just the theoretical line - but one an F1 car would take if ahead or alone.

VET & PER get to choose their respective lines going into Copse since they are ahead. This is where many will differ on if HAM gained enough overlap to deserve room.

Tomorrow’s review conference call should be interesting.

This weekend has a different panel of Stewards working with Masi at Hungaroring.


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[77T]

Originally Posted by 77T

VET* & PER* get to choose their respective lines going into Copse since they are ahead.

* VER & LEC d’oh - mental typo’s…


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[texasmade]

Per Mercedes instagram, racing stewards reject RBR's extra whining. British GP collision is now closed.

[jatco]

Originally Posted by texasmade

Per Mercedes instagram, racing stewards reject RBR's extra whining. British GP collision is now closed.

Thanks for the update

[77T]

Originally Posted by texasmade

Per Mercedes instagram, racing stewards reject RBR's extra whining. British GP collision is now closed.

They did but I think more antics are coming…the beat goes on…

RBR failed to provide a significant and relevant new element which was unavailable at the track. Some slides and sims and a video. But not really relevant.

But RBR hurled some scurrilous $-it and the panel did not discuss it.

The FIA said that the Stewards had some concern about RBR allegations made in the review petition letter.

I’m guessing the paddock reporters will be digging into that before FP1 Friday.

I saw this…
“Such allegations may or may not have been relevant to the Stewards if the Petition for Review had been granted. The Stewards may have addressed these allegations directly in any decision that would have followed. The Petition having been dismissed, the Stewards make no comments on those allegations.”


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[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by texasmade

Per Mercedes instagram, racing stewards reject RBR's extra whining. British GP collision is now closed.

So... about this weekend....

[Speedbird-1]

Red Bull even performed a re-enactment of Hamilton’s first lap of the British Grand Prix using their reserve driver Alex Albon during a filming day at Silverstone last week.

Interesting. I wonder how 'neutral and unbiased' the filmed 'evidence' was.

[Andad]

Did Alex survive?

Some are getting cynical in there old age Paul.

I really am on the fence.

I don’t like Hamilton and like Verstappen even less so the outcome means nothing to me.

As I posted previously I blamed Hamilton 60% Verstappen 40% but given the speed, the corner and the potential for serious injuries Hamilton’s 10 second penalty was a joke.

The current decision sets a poor standard moving forward.

[Speedbird-1]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

resulting in HAM hitting the rt rear of VER car with his lt front.

I disagree with that sentence. What you are kind of suggesting here, is that the Mercedes somehow 'reversed' into the Honda.

If you study that video, the FRONT of the Red Bull's REAR wheel, clearly hits the REAR of the Mercedes FRONT wheel.
This indicates that the Honda was travelling faster, therefore the Honda did the "hitting".

[Rashid.bk]

All this could have been avoided if Max had just Leclered Lewis and then raced at the next corner for the lead. But noooooo, it’s not how Max races so everyone’s blood pressure is up trying to rationalize what normally is nothing between any two mid pack teams.
Horner is a giant baby whining about the collision as if Lewis ran a red light and t-boned Max. Ohhhhh, the money in damage…..that’s why your driver needs to be careful when he races, you break it you bought it. Not to mention that since forever your damages are your teams responsibility, race according to what your pockets can handle.

It’s racing, and racing things happen. Horner seems to imply that Lewis was irresponsible or malicious. And that the stewards didn’t do their job. How many times has Max literally crashed into someone, being overly aggressive and irresponsible. But that’s just racing when it’s Max.
Can’t wait to put this to rest.

[texasmade]

Originally Posted by Rashid.bk

Can’t wait to put this to rest.

It's been put to rest until RBR tells Alpha Tauri to dive bomb Mercedes and then Mercedes retaliates by having George dive bomb Max. It then becomes an escalation of every other race of sister teams trying to take out RBR and Mercedes. Ferrari and Mclaren end up fighting for the championship because they were stuck in the midfield and avoided getting involved with the big boys.

[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by Speedbird-1

I disagree with that sentence. What you are kind of suggesting here, is that the Mercedes somehow 'reversed' into the Honda.

If you study that video, the FRONT of the Red Bull's REAR wheel, clearly hits the REAR of the Mercedes FRONT wheel.
This indicates that the Honda was travelling faster, therefore the Honda did the "hitting".

I see what you're saying. What I thought was enlightening and something that hasn't been discussed yet but is pretty elementary when you sit down and think about it is when Max was at the press conference and said that Lewis could never hold that line on the inside and understeered into him. With the speed they were going a wider arch is needed to make that corner. On the approach to Copse, Max covered the inside and Lewis faked like he would go outside, but then zigged back to the inside. Max specifically stated he could have squeezed Lewis to the wall but didn't. So on the approach to Copse Max opened his steering wheel to get a wider arch (this is where the often talked about "gap" comes from" but an F1 car going that fast can never make that corner on cold tires and full fuel and Lewis basically understeered into him.

Max went onto say that the race stewards assigned "Most of the blame on Lewis" but failed to see how "a percentage" of blame was on him. This is where I completely agree with this statement.

Again, not one person in 2 weeks has been able to give a single example of what rule and regulation Max violated in this instance so how does Max have any blame in this collision? And if the stewards are to be consistent, they need to just look at the Saturday sprint race when Russell understeered and pit Sainz off the track and gave him a 3 grid spot penalty. Inconsistent and that's the problem with having with the race stewards last weekend. One could argue that having different race stewards for each weekend makes for inconsistency, but in the examples above, it was the same race weekend, same race stewards. Both instances of British drivers at a British GP and British drivers doing the hip checking but different penalties.

[jatco]

How many times are you going to beat a dead horse...?
.
Moving right along...

[Speedbird-1]

Originally Posted by jatco

How many times are you going to beat a dead horse...?
.
Moving right along...

Prefer........pictures of breakfasts, or steering wheels perhaps?

[jatco]

Originally Posted by Speedbird-1

Prefer........pictures of breakfasts, or steering wheels perhaps?

.

[Speedbird-1]

Originally Posted by jatco

.

Yum!

[SDGT3]

[77T]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

I see what you're saying. What I thought was enlightening and something that hasn't been discussed yet but is pretty elementary when you sit down and think about it is when Max was at the press conference and said that Lewis could never hold that line on the inside and understeered into him. With the speed they were going a wider arch is needed to make that corner. On the approach to Copse, Max covered the inside and Lewis faked like he would go outside, but then zigged back to the inside. Max specifically stated he could have squeezed Lewis to the wall but didn't. So on the approach to Copse Max opened his steering wheel to get a wider arch (this is where the often talked about "gap" comes from" but an F1 car going that fast can never make that corner on cold tires and full fuel and Lewis basically understeered into him.

You bring a good question up.
Given the relative position VER took to cover HAM, would VER himself have ever made it through Copse, at his speed, without going off-track on driver’s left?
We will never know, but I believe he would have had a very compromised exit and would have to brake, countersteer, then accelerate to avoid leaving the track.

HAM had zero chance of navigating Copse to his own advantage methinks - he was just too far right.

Originally Posted by SDGT3

Max went onto say that the race stewards assigned "Most of the blame on Lewis" but failed to see how "a percentage" of blame was on him. This is where I completely agree with this statement. Again, not one person in 2 weeks has been able to give a single example of what rule and regulation Max violated in this instance so how does Max have any blame in this collision?

I agree VER had no blame.

When Stewards says driver is “predominantly at fault”, it doesn’t mean the other driver shared in any blame. It just means not “wholly at fault”. The circumstances and context of every incident are taken into account. If VER had any measure of blame, it would have been noted in the decision. I posted the full decision during the race to help everyone know the reason for the penalty.

Max had zero responsibility for this incident.

Originally Posted by SDGT3

And if the stewards are to be consistent, they need to just look at the Saturday sprint race when Russell understeered and pit Sainz off the track and gave him a 3 grid spot penalty. Inconsistent and that's the problem with having with the race stewards last weekend. One could argue that having different race stewards for each weekend makes for inconsistency, but in the examples above, it was the same race weekend, same race stewards. Both instances of British drivers at a British GP and British drivers doing the hip checking but different penalties.

Steward penalties are mostly consistent, it’s the incidents that change and the situation, too.

Panels are made up of 1. a local Steward appointed by the ASN, 2. a Chair who is an international level very experienced Steward, 3. an international Steward, and 4. a Driver Steward.

Therefore, the panels are different race to race. But even races are different within the same weekend. The Sprint Qualifying incident you mention is a good example. The facts of the matter are judged in the same context as the Sunday race. But for a penalty to be meaningful, it may vary. For example, that short length Saturday takes a few arrows out of the Stewards quiver. But it also adds some, too.

Taking grid spots from RUS made sense, a 10-sec. didn’t. Why? Because there are no pit stops in a Sprint Qually. Just one example.

Everyone has good questions here and I agree with jatco - let’s talk Hungaroring.

How about the F3 race tomorrow? I encourage you to watch it. Also when F2 shares a weekend - these are the future of the sport coming up…14 y.o. drivers with a dream. Oh, and doing nearly the same speeds…

BTW, penalties are different even within the same sporting code when applied to junior drivers. They don’t just serve to neutralize the lasting advantage a non-compliant driver attained - but also to educate/dissuade the rest of the paddock from the same jackwagonery.


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[SDGT3]

77T (may I call you Paul?). Just 1 final note before moving onto Hungary. Unless forbidden by rule (this is the first time F1 has ever used a Sprint qualifying format), a 10 second penalty for RUS could still have been used in a Sprint race without pitstops as the 10 sec. would simply be added to his time at the end. Whatever position he finished, if someone were within 10 sec. of his finishing time, they would have slotted up ahead of RUS for Sunday's race.

Onto Hungary... It was reported this morning that Red Bull have been able to salvage Max's engine that was in the chassis during the Silverstone crash. Max was P1 in FP1 and P3 behind both Mercs for FP2. It's yet to be determined if they will use the engine for qualifying tomorrow.

[texasmade]

Great gamesmanship by Mercedes at the end of Q3 to screw over RB.