Debate on the year 1984 WG surrounds started on 16800...

[Pureform]

When I tell people I have an original Transitional 1984 Rolex 16800 with WG surrounds and gloss dial, I get no way that's a replacement dial and that didn't transition till 1985/86, yours should be a Matte dial without WG surrounds... Well that's not true cause my father and his brother bought both watches at the same time brand new late 84.. The dealer even said this is the first year in 1984 they changed the dial to gloss with WG surrounds that we are receiving from Rolex.. He even said I also have a Matte finish dial with WG surrounds too and when they looked at it they liked the gloss better... One with 8.3 which was my fathers and 8.5 was his brothers, both from 1984 and both came with WG surrounds and gloss dial... Even the oddball part is my fathers 8.3 came with closed 6's and 9's date wheel and his 8.5 came with open 6's and 9's date wheel...

So I think it's time to debunk that theory about it being transitioned in 85/86 and the conclusion is yes, Gloss dial/ WG surrounds transitioned in 1984...

[037]

I'd believe it.

[koryong]

I think there were both matte and glossy dials produced during that period, that's why it's called transitional ;-)

Anyway, I recall seeing another thread about ADs changing matte dials to glossy on brand new 16800 and 16750 references during this transition because everybody prefered the new glossy dials then. So this apparently speeded up the presence of glossy dials in some countries whilst matte dials were still seen in others, as late as 8.6 mil serial #s.
I think a couple of other guys on the forum concurred with this "theory" but nobody else chimed in to substantiate this adequately.

[stevedssd]

Do you have photo's of both or either watch, would be nice to see

[springer]

1984 is the accepted year by most individuals for the transition to gloss dials. Actually, the transition from one dial to the other is based more on serial numbers than the year with 8.4 million serial numbers accepted as 1984 vintage. There have been reports of individuals with earlier serial numbers than 8.4 million which contained glossy dials so there is definitely a transition period or overlap from the matte dials to the glossy dials.

[Vincent65]

Originally Posted by Pureform

He even said I also have a Matte finish dial with WG surrounds too and when they looked at it they liked the gloss better...

I'd like to see that one

[Pureform]

Originally Posted by Vincent65

I'd like to see that one

I found this example... 1984 matte with white gold surrounds... Link below of the original owner buying this in 1985... Serial number and clasp code I6 puts it at June 1984...

https://www.watchcollectinglifestyle...he-wrist-since

[Pureform]

Originally Posted by stevedssd

Do you have photo's of both or either watch, would be nice to see

My uncle is in California so can't get a photo of his watch at the moment but my father handed down to me his watch not to long ago so here is a pic... My clasp code is I9 Sept of 84...
I wear it everyday now and the indices is getting slowly lighter and lighter, I wont be surpised in a few months it will not be as yellow but more whitesh creme....

[stevedssd]

That's a lovely watch, glad you are wearing it daily

[koryong]

Simply gorgeous

[mineral]

Originally Posted by Pureform

When I tell people I have an original Transitional 1984 Rolex 16800 with WG surrounds and gloss dial, I get no way that's a replacement dial and that didn't transition till 1985/86, yours should be a Matte dial without WG surrounds... Well that's not true cause my father and his brother bought both watches at the same time brand new late 84.. The dealer even said this is the first year in 1984 they changed the dial to gloss with WG surrounds that we are receiving from Rolex.. He even said I also have a Matte finish dial with WG surrounds too and when they looked at it they liked the gloss better... One with 8.3 which was my fathers and 8.5 was his brothers, both from 1984 and both came with WG surrounds and gloss dial... Even the oddball part is my fathers 8.3 came with closed 6's and 9's date wheel and his 8.5 came with open 6's and 9's date wheel...

So I think it's time to debunk that theory about it being transitioned in 85/86 and the conclusion is yes, Gloss dial/ WG surrounds transitioned in 1984...

i think glossy dial transitional 5513 exist in 1984. i have few in my collection, serial from 8.4 mil to 8.6 mil if i can recall . i need to dig them out from the safe to verify them.

so you are correct.

[Pureform]

Originally Posted by mineral

i think glossy dial transitional 5513 exist in 1984. i have few in my collection, serial from 8.4 mil to 8.6 mil if i can recall . i need to dig them out from the safe to verify them.

so you are correct.

I wonder what's the lowest serial number mine is 8.35k serial...

[roh123]

Like with any transitional anything is possible. Some will accept them and some wont.

[Vincent65]

Originally Posted by Pureform

I found this example... 1984 matte with white gold surrounds... Link below of the original owner buying this in 1985... Serial number and clasp code I6 puts it at June 1984...

Yeah, it started off gloss, and turned slightly matte. Lacquer/moisture issue, most likely.

[Pureform]

Originally Posted by Vincent65

Yeah, it started off gloss, and turned slightly matte. Lacquer/moisture issue, most likely.

I don't agree with you on this, but again we both have our opinions... This looks identical to the matte dial from the previous 16800 without the gold surrounds and they took the leftover dials and added the gold surrounds... Look through a loupe and you will see...Ive seen about 5 examples in my life but have also seen a few pics online like this example...No way this had lacquer on it and turned matte and def not a moisture issue... Ive seen many examples of gloss that looks matte but they will all still have a sheen on it from a thin layer of lacquer on the dial dulled slighty when you look through it with a 10x loupe... For it to be completely matte the thin layer of lacquer has to be peeled off and we know you can't do that by hand, also that's why you see spider dials or stardust dials(hence the lacquer bubbling) and so forth... That pic is a true matte dial...

[Vincent65]

Ok

[Vincent65]

Here's an excerpt from your very own linked article:

"While this Submariner is fitted with a tritium glossy dial with white gold surrounds, the dial appears to have more of a matte look to it..."

[Pureform]

Originally Posted by Vincent65

Here's an excerpt from your very own linked article:

"While this Submariner is fitted with a tritium glossy dial with white gold surrounds, the dial appears to have more of a matte look to it..."

I still believe it's a true matte dial from the texture but again I don't see it in person...The author can be misinformed like many amateur so called rolex pros that think all 16800 with wg surrounds were gloss dials that turned matte... Again it's my opinion and respect your opinion...

I wonder if anybody out there have seen actual matte dials that had wg surrounds added... I know I have...

[TimeToGo]

I once saw a 1680 white dial that I was sure started off as a red dial with white gold surrounds...

Anything is possible..

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Pureform

I don't agree with you on this, but again we both have our opinions... This looks identical to the matte dial from the previous 16800 without the gold surrounds and they took the leftover dials and added the gold surrounds... Look through a loupe and you will see...Ive seen about 5 examples in my life but have also seen a few pics online like this example...No way this had lacquer on it and turned matte and def not a moisture issue... Ive seen many examples of gloss that looks matte but they will all still have a sheen on it from a thin layer of lacquer on the dial dulled slighty when you look through it with a 10x loupe... For it to be completely matte the thin layer of lacquer has to be peeled off and we know you can't do that by hand, also that's why you see spider dials or stardust dials(hence the lacquer bubbling) and so forth... That pic is a true matte dial...

Guessing the ones that are partly matte from the same era also came like that from factory? :)

[Pureform]

Originally Posted by roh123

Guessing the ones that are partly matte from the same era also came like that from factory? :)

Yes... As I wrote in my initial post my father and his brother had an option to look at a matte dial with gold surrounds but ended up choosing the gloss dial with gold surrounds instead since it was the NEW HOT PIECE everybody wanted cause of the gloss.. He said he told the dealer that he has already the 1680 and doesn't want another matte dial... Low and behold nobody knew that was going to be rare today... I was skeptical till I actually saw one in the flesh at a trade show...

[Obykinobi]

were the lumes in the wg surround tritium or luminova?

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by Obykinobi

were the lumes in the wg surround tritium or luminova?

Tritium. Says so right on the dial!

[ianmcg]

It's obviously a slightly different thing from standard 16800s but the Comex 16800s that were given to divers for 10 years service are mostly 8.2m serial numbers and were issued during 1984 - the dates are engraved on the back. They are all gloss dials with white gold markers - here's one that sold recently and there are a number in this batch.

https://www.phillips.com/detail/role...0&searchPage=1

[TuRo]

Seen many, and 8.55 million the oldest matte I have seen with punched papers and seen WG surround punched from 8.45 million as JP says

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by Pureform

Yes... As I wrote in my initial post my father and his brother had an option to look at a matte dial with gold surrounds but ended up choosing the gloss dial with gold surrounds instead since it was the NEW HOT PIECE everybody wanted cause of the gloss.. He said he told the dealer that he has already the 1680 and doesn't want another matte dial... Low and behold nobody knew that was going to be rare today... I was skeptical till I actually saw one in the flesh at a trade show...

Yes in London in mid 80s gloss wg surrounds with the super sought after (Gold inspired sapphire) were fetching 25-30% more than the unloved old fashioned unsold acrylic 1680 at Rolex Dealers believe it or not!

[mrs_LA]

As with anything there is no concrete serial number range for production on specific dials/bezels/bracelets. Overlaps may occur. ‘84 is acceptable for WG surrounds.

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by mrs_LA

As with anything there is no concrete serial number range for production on specific dials/bezels/bracelets. Overlaps may occur. ‘84 is acceptable for WG surrounds.

Yes and lets be frank nobody is going to lie backwards eg bluff away on a watch that is less expensive than its matte equivalent....in fact the unscrupulous would buy this and put a matte in and pocket a $3000 profit (net of selling the gloss w/g)