Box and papers vs. stainless steel

[deebles]

Understanding this is a subjective question with a lot of confounding factors, but I'm curious your opinions. You're looking at two watches, same year and reference but: one is a stainless steel and watch only, the other is two-tone, but comes with box and papers. I'm curious which of these holds more weight for you and/or which you believe is more valuable on the secondary market.

[MrBlobby]

The watch with the box and papers will be heavier. I’d say it will weigh an extra 200 to 400 grams depending upon the box type.

[deebles]

I was too trusting with my use of metaphor

[Kingface66]

But, they’re completely different watches. Assuming you’re talking about 1680 Subs, a SS example is nothing like a two tone. Personally, I find two-tones hideous. Why? I have no idea. And box and papers wouldn’t sweeten the deal at all. Point is, why would you not get the watch you want and make that the priority? Box and papers can’t be worn on your wrist.
At this point in your never-ending quest, get the WATCH that makes you happiest. It’s totally subjective.

[MrBlobby]

Provenience is the new box and papers and that doesn’t weigh anything.

Realistically I prefer a watch in great condition. I wouldn’t be too hung up on having a box.

[deebles]

Originally Posted by Kingface66

Completely different watches

I'm not sure this is a universal feeling. A two-tone sub and a SS sub, to me, aren't completely different watches. They are two similar watches made from different materials.

Originally Posted by Kingface66

At this point in your never-ending quest, get the WATCH that makes you happiest. It’s totally subjective.

I do understand it's subjective, which I said at the top of the OP. I don't really understand the advice I've been getting to focus on the ONE watch I want and seek it out. There isn't ONE watch I want. I like SS, I like TT, I like Subs, I like Datejusts, I like GMT's, I like Rolex, I like casio...I just like finding treasure. It's all a spectrum to me, where things like model, reference, year, condition, material, box, papers, etc. form a gestalt that I'm still trying to get my head around. Which I why I ask the forum how they think of these things.

[Lol-x]

I'd buy the model I wanted with box and papers

[deebles]

Originally Posted by Lol-x

I'd buy the model I wanted with box and papers

They are both models I want. I like many watches. There is no single one I’m seeking.

[MrBlobby]

Is this hypothetical or do you have real examples? If it is hypothetical (eg two subs, one two tone with the box and papers and the other stainless) then why don’t you imagine one is no longer available and then get the other one?

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by Kingface66

But, they’re completely different watches.

Agree 100%. There's no way to universally compare SS and TT, everyone has different tastes.

[deebles]

Originally Posted by Dan S

Agree 100%. There's no way to universally compare SS and TT, everyone has different tastes.

In your experience, would you disagree with the statement: In aggregate, the secondary market somewhat prefers SS vs TT such that the difference in retail value of a SS vs TT of the same model is quickly overtaken and the SS can be expected to be somewhat more expensive.

?

[KY..]

Originally Posted by deebles

They are both models I want. I like many watches. There is no single one I’m seeking.

I get it as I have the same thoughts and like many different brands and models.
There’re 2 purchase scenarios for me picking something up.
1. I have to really like it, basically love it , to pull the trigger/spend money.(Beware)
2. Or it has to be something desirable at a big discount to, dare I say, flip/trade later.

[RFC]

Originally Posted by deebles

Understanding this is a subjective question with a lot of confounding factors, but I'm curious your opinions. You're looking at two watches, same year and reference but: one is a stainless steel and watch only, the other is two-tone, but comes with box and papers. I'm curious which of these holds more weight for you and/or which you believe is more valuable on the secondary market.

You didn’t mention condition. Assuming both are in the same condition a SS will be in more demand (and command a higher price) than a full set two tone of the same watch. You also didn’t mention the year. A modern SS watch w/o full set will be less desireable than a full set modern 2 tone. As for me I would pass on any 2 tone no matter condition or box/papers.

[RFC]

Originally Posted by Dan S

Agree 100%. There's no way to universally compare SS and TT, everyone has different tastes.

OP is not asking about individual tastes. He asked about opinions of relative values. And yes, there’s plenty of market data that, assuming everything else equal, SS models of the same reference are generally more valuable than 2 tones.

[deebles]

Originally Posted by Dan S

Agree 100%. There's no way to universally compare SS and TT, everyone has different tastes.

Originally Posted by RFC

OP is not asking about individual tastes. He asked about opinions of relative values. And yes, there’s plenty of market data that, assuming everything else equal, SS models of the same reference are generally more valuable than 2 tones.

Yes. The question is essentially: the market prefers SS to TT, but does the market prefer SS w/o papers to TT w/ papers?

[MrBlobby]

Originally Posted by deebles

In your experience, would you disagree with the statement: In aggregate, the secondary market somewhat prefers SS vs TT such that the difference in retail value of a SS vs TT of the same model is quickly overtaken and the SS can be expected to be somewhat more expensive.

?

Baked in

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by deebles

Yes. The question is essentially: the market prefers SS to TT, but does the market prefer SS w/o papers to TT w/ papers?

It depends, not really possible to answer generically, it could be different for DJ vs Sub vs GMT. And it's a silly hypothetical TBH. Apples and oranges. I think that almost every serious collector focuses primarily on looking for the watch that appeals to them, and condition of course.

[MrBlobby]

Box and papers is probably the last part on what sets value. Model, condition, its history are much more important.

In my opinion it is silly to think that two tone plus papers compares to stainless without.

You started another thread about where to buy and to some extent if you look at auction results you might find an answer to the question you are trying to ask (I don’t think the question makes any sense).

To some extent stainless steel has outperformed precious metal and two tone but this varies with models (and versions of models). Furthermore past performance is not always a great indicator of tomorrow.

I still don’t get the question because in a hypothetical world mr blobby might jump up and down on one of the watches and then it won’t have done as well as the other one.

[TuRo]

[MorningTundra]

Are you trying to ask what our personal value premium is on b&p? All things being equal, they’re worth maybe $500-$1000 to me, depending how complete (anchor, tags, sales receipt, booklets, brochures…)


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[baumare]

Strangely nobody suggested the easy response: Just buy them both!

[Filipão]

You won't have a box and papers on your wrist, feast yourself with the watch you like!

[Old Expat Beast]

It goes beyond merely "box & papers". Also to be considered are the condition and type of box (both inner and outer, original insert, cigarette card, wood grain pattern, reference number) and the exotic-location points of the dealer on the papers (Monte Carlo being more romantic than Newark, etc).

[tekno]

I think I see what your saying. Two watches are same $, a nice SS cost what a B&P 18k/SS does

If it’s a sports watch I will always go SS. I don’t care for SS/18K subs, GMT etc. they are the least desirable. If you buy one, buy a mint one with B&P, I mean factory mint & not Rolex serviced mint.

It increases your likelihood of not being stuck with it. I really think you need to find something you like and narrow it down to SS or 18k/SS

If your talking about oyster quartz or the auto quartz style I think I would choose a factory looking perfect watch w/factory polish like the one I showed you over a dogged out SS. That’s probably the only time I would say go 18k/SS over SS.

The oyster quartz are awful after polishing. I wouldn’t consider owning one unless it went straight to LAWW.

[deebles]

I just saw a factory-fresh looking oysterquartz in Chinatown going for 5.5 today

[RFC]

Originally Posted by Filipão

You won't have a box and papers on your wrist, feast yourself with the watch you like!

This, exactly.

[Tools]

Originally Posted by deebles

They are both models I want. I like many watches. There is no single one I’m seeking.

There is no value to "box and papers" unless it is of value to you.

Early vintage with the full-set, whatever that means, can be very high in value because of its true rarity, other watches; it boils down to bragging rights.


A trashed watch with box and papers cannot hold a value-candle to a watch in excellent condition without them.

[zapokee]

Originally Posted by Tools

There is no value to "box and papers" unless it is of value to you.

Early vintage with the full-set, whatever that means, can be very high in value because of its true rarity, other watches; it boils down to bragging rights.

A trashed watch with box and papers cannot hold a value-candle to a watch in excellent condition without them.

Tools has nailed it.

[Arnozerosix]

Box and paper are mainly to complete collector set/pieces, i don't see any TT sub being a collector to be honest ....

[Andad]

Originally Posted by deebles

I just saw a factory-fresh looking oysterquartz in Chinatown going for 5.5 today

Stainless steel or TT?

Box and papers?