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bogo · 13 July 2023, 12:33 PM

Hi All,

I wanted to gather your thoughts on a Tudor Snowflake 7021 or the 9411. I used to have a great example of a 7021 that I sold about 6 years ago, and my goodness, have those things gone up in value. I loved the faded ghost bezel, the roulette dial, but abhorred the lack of quickset date when the paltry power reserve ran out.

I am in the market for either model, but would like to find an honest blue example, no real need to B&P, or even a bracelet as I always wore mine on a NATO.

Can anyone chime in on their experiences of owning a 9411 vs 7021, and what I should be budgeting to pay these days? Looks like $8 - $10K for a head only should do it?

alwayshere · 13 July 2023, 02:57 PM

from memory, the 7021 doesn't have quickset so the 9411 is a bit more modern from that perspective.

Otherwise they largely look the same. Dial quality in the tudor subs have always been a mixed bag. Heaps of them have dial pimples / rot. I think the later 9411 tends to be okay and the earlier 7021 as well.

I think for a good example, be prepared to pay more than $10K, especially for a blue dial.

996marty · 13 July 2023, 03:58 PM

IMG_2023-6-28-234653.jpg

This is a 9411/0 that I have just literally bought it’s come from the original owner it’s had plenty of wrist time and it shows it but it’s hopefully all there. These are watches that have always fascinated me so I jumped at the chance to buy it and it’ll be a keeper.
Antiquorum have one up for auction if that helps.

Filipão · 14 July 2023, 06:48 AM

The true "Snowflake" with quickset date ;-)

Pure, simple and with dome plexi.

bogo · 14 July 2023, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 996marty

Attachment 1378712

This is a 9411/0 that I have just literally bought it’s come from the original owner it’s had plenty of wrist time and it shows it but it’s hopefully all there. These are watches that have always fascinated me so I jumped at the chance to buy it and it’ll be a keeper.
Antiquorum have one up for auction if that helps.

I saw that one too! I think some people were remarking the "blood" on it, but looked more like paint to me.

TuRo · 18 July 2023, 08:47 PM

Not much in it but :

7021/0 rarer, just 4 or so years and the roulette really is nice for 15 days a month at least !!

If mint a 7021 commands quite a more, but if bit ratty close to being about the same. You should get a Rolex 9315 too which is a bonus ;-)

9411/0 quickset major boon to some.

Tbh I nearly always look for/buy, either oldest or first edition if given choice of any Tudor or Rolex except Daytona manuals (due to size).

Usually, over time, they are/become more coveted/ rare and my notes show that 30-35 years ago they did not command much premium over later versions....but do now eg Tudor Homeplate, 7924 and other pre 7928, Red Datejust/Daydate, Rolex 37mm Subs, 16800/16660 matte, 16750 matte, No-date MK1 16760, MTRS first 1680/5513, Thin/MTRS first SD1665, mk1 1655 Exp2 thin hand, MK1 flat4 16610lv, All gilt subs/gmts/1016s (which were much cheaper than matte btw in late 80s /early 90s btw !!!!) etc etc takes time ........but usually is the case I've found, since I started collecting in 1977.

linesiders · 18 July 2023, 09:05 PM

Find one you like and post photos here for comment to be safe.

Good looking can be a little ratty if it has some charm ; )

Dom9 · 19 July 2023, 04:06 AM

Good luck with the search; the 9411 is my favourite Sub of any variety, especially in blue!

suligeo · 19 July 2023, 07:55 AM

Love the blue 9411. If you like it, send me DM

https://www.instagram.com/vintage_georgex/

mineral · 19 July 2023, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TuRo

Not much in it but :

7021/0 rarer, just 4 or so years and the roulette really is nice for 15 days a month at least !!

If mint a 7021 commands quite a more, but if bit ratty close to being about the same. You should get a Rolex 9315 too which is a bonus ;-)

9411/0 quickset major boon to some.

Tbh I nearly always look for/buy, either oldest or first edition if given choice of any Tudor or Rolex except Daytona manuals (due to size).

Usually, over time, they are/become more coveted/ rare and my notes show that 30-35 years ago they did not command much premium over later versions....but do now eg Tudor Homeplate, 7924 and other pre 7928, Red Datejust/Daydate, Rolex 37mm Subs, 16800/16660 matte, 16750 matte, No-date MK1 16760, MTRS first 1680/5513, Thin/MTRS first SD1665, mk1 1655 Exp2 thin hand, MK1 flat4 16610lv, All gilt subs/gmts/1016s (which were much cheaper than matte btw in late 80s /early 90s btw !!!!) etc etc takes time ........but usually is the case I've found, since I started collecting in 1977.

Agreed

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dom9 · 20 July 2023, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suligeo

Love the blue 9411. If you like it, send me DM

https://www.instagram.com/vintage_georgex/

That's lovely, George! Can vouch for George as a great seller.

996marty · 20 July 2023, 05:09 AM

Nice one that George is offering for sale

suligeo · 20 July 2023, 09:20 PM

Thanks Dom9

Yes my 9411 is for sale.

https://www.instagram.com/vintage_georgex/

mutter · 26 July 2023, 09:33 AM

Were you the winner of the 7021 on Antiquorum earlier today?

Any thoughts from people about the price on the one that sold at Antiquorum (Monaco)... feels low compared to what's gone before, should that be the target price now?

996marty · 26 July 2023, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mutter

Were you the winner of the 7021 on Antiquorum earlier today?

Any thoughts from people about the price on the one that sold at Antiquorum (Monaco)... feels low compared to what's gone before, should that be the target price now?

That one went ridiculously cheap I thought some more bids would come in on it.

Dom9 · 26 July 2023, 04:45 PM

Link? Market certainly seems to be softening somewhat but... they aren't making any more of them! Always loved the 4/5-digit Rolex but since I got my 9411s, I've given up chasing anything else (for now) - such lovely things.

996marty · 26 July 2023, 04:55 PM

TUDOR REF. 7021 SUBMARINER SNOWFLAKE STEEL
Tudor
Lot 91: TUDOR REF. 7021 SUBMARINER SNOWFLAKE STEEL

Est: €2,000 EUR - €4,000 EUR
Sold: €5,000 EUR
Antiquorum Genève SA
July 25, 2023

996marty · 26 July 2023, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 996marty

TUDOR REF. 7021 SUBMARINER SNOWFLAKE STEEL
Tudor
Lot 91: TUDOR REF. 7021 SUBMARINER SNOWFLAKE STEEL

Est: €2,000 EUR - €4,000 EUR
Sold: €5,000 EUR
Antiquorum Genève SA
July 25, 2023

So total of €6500 with commission or £5574.00 still not too bad of a price

bogo · 27 July 2023, 02:11 AM

Did not bid on the Antiquorum watch. I was surprised by the price though. Good for whomever won it.

TuRo · 27 July 2023, 02:57 AM

Be additional 15-20 % buyers premium usually hence I don't use auctions... but yes an ok price agreed....imho auction house make chunks of money - 12-15% seller fees and similar buyers fees.

Tbh it's a complete con, unless you want to shift something quietly/without too much forensic assessment....I could share many stories, as could Jose, on the vagaries of auction sales and the daft actions of buyers and nefarious dodgy sellers incl BIG retailers lumbered with dubious watches they can't retail !!!

Dwatcher91 · 2 August 2023, 01:46 AM

Hey All, do we know what the original bracelet for a 7016 or 7021 sub from 1970?

TuRo · 2 August 2023, 03:08 AM

No hard and fast rule as ADs could mix and match but 7206 rivet was late really for 69/70, but some dealers fitted in UK (and they would fit a rubber tropic too) from old 'discounted stock' esp on 5513/1016/1675 and Tudor Subs my dealer Upchurch told me in the 80s.

So tbh if you are looking for one it's a Rolex 9315 folded link - Rolex Clasp and Rolex Blades - that's 90-95% of the designation I'd suggest

It becomes a bit hazy on the Shield introduction to clasp. I might be a year or so off. The first Tudors to get the 'Shield Dial' were circa late 68 early 69 for the dial (34mm got it first I recall).... and then the move to the clasps happened a couple of years afterwards albeit with Rolex blades.

Ps Some C and I (the flatter equal width 3 link) in North America mkt possibly too, but I'm not sure. They are a much inferior bracelet in feel and shape too imho.

Dwatcher91 · 2 August 2023, 10:07 AM

Some knowledge right there ^ thanks so much for the detailed response.

I’ve actually been seeing a lot of the 7021’s with a 7836 bracelet and either 380, 382 or 580 end links. Assuming this was the other option? Or is there a possibility a lot of these got swapped in later? I also have seen “period-correct” thrown around alongside rivet bracelets - but I assume this is just a fancy way of saying “around about that era”.

Agreed, the C&I bracelets look a bit thin and flimsy. I see those less, but not uncommonly.

Thanks again

TuRo · 2 August 2023, 04:17 PM

Yes indeed. In the UK a 7836 could also be fitted, and saved the buyer a few ££ over a 9315, and it has the clasp aesthetic of the hitherto 7206.

Many, first year production, 1969 watches for sale with 7836 shown have Tudor clasps so I suspect perhaps swapped out entirely, or service clasp.

Ps - This 69/70 bracelet period is made tricky because the 7206 introduced in circa 54 was being discontinued and discounted, the 7836 introduced in circa 67 was plentiful, and the newly introduced, in circa 1969, 9315 was in short supply for Rolex as well as Tudor.

Dwatcher91 · 4 August 2023, 01:25 PM

Well to save some extra quid it makes sense then. Yeh service clasps seems like the ticket. Didn’t know that was something they swapped in.

Right, ok. Well anything before around 67 I’m seeing 7026 or C&I’s and then more and more after that seem to transition over.

Well I’m considering picking up a 7021 from a local dealer soon. Im unable to share any photos here but the serial says 74xxxx. It’s a 1970 blue dial and what I’m reading is confusing me a bit - black dials tended to sit around the 74xxxx to 78xxxx whilst blue around the 62xxxx. Maybe this was specifically for the 7016 though and the 7021 was different.

Any insight you can provide would be greatly appreciated! Happy to send some photos if you give me an email or something to send to.

linesiders · 4 August 2023, 07:45 PM

619XXX to 627XXX serial 7016 Subs are the Semi Pointed Crown Guard stamped 7528 on caseback, are usually Rose dialed but include Blue SWISS only dials. 7016 and 7021 start 730K serial , this includes the blue.

C&I were very common on Tudor thru mid / late 70s in USA

sgwatchobsession · 25 November 2023, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suligeo

Love the blue 9411. If you like it, send me DM

https://www.instagram.com/vintage_georgex/

Lovely piece, are you still looking to sell it?

13 July 2023, 12:33 PM	#1
bogo "TRF" Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Real Name: Bobby Location: San Francisco Posts: 32	Tudor 7021 or 9411 Hi All, I wanted to gather your thoughts on a Tudor Snowflake 7021 or the 9411. I used to have a great example of a 7021 that I sold about 6 years ago, and my goodness, have those things gone up in value. I loved the faded ghost bezel, the roulette dial, but abhorred the lack of quickset date when the paltry power reserve ran out. I am in the market for either model, but would like to find an honest blue example, no real need to B&P, or even a bracelet as I always wore mine on a NATO. Can anyone chime in on their experiences of owning a 9411 vs 7021, and what I should be budgeting to pay these days? Looks like $8 - $10K for a head only should do it?

18 July 2023, 08:47 PM	#6
TuRo "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Real Name: Paul Location: Cantabrigia - G.B Watch: ing the detectives Posts: 2,811	Not much in it but : 7021/0 rarer, just 4 or so years and the roulette really is nice for 15 days a month at least !! If mint a 7021 commands quite a more, but if bit ratty close to being about the same. You should get a Rolex 9315 too which is a bonus ;-) 9411/0 quickset major boon to some. Tbh I nearly always look for/buy, either oldest or first edition if given choice of any Tudor or Rolex except Daytona manuals (due to size). Usually, over time, they are/become more coveted/ rare and my notes show that 30-35 years ago they did not command much premium over later versions....but do now eg Tudor Homeplate, 7924 and other pre 7928, Red Datejust/Daydate, Rolex 37mm Subs, 16800/16660 matte, 16750 matte, No-date MK1 16760, MTRS first 1680/5513, Thin/MTRS first SD1665, mk1 1655 Exp2 thin hand, MK1 flat4 16610lv, All gilt subs/gmts/1016s (which were much cheaper than matte btw in late 80s /early 90s btw !!!!) etc etc takes time ........but usually is the case I've found, since I started collecting in 1977. __________________ Thieves and fools and long travelled soldiers, A candid light exposes their homes. Human falter, people bellowed from their homes. And houses, there's fools and long reigning pharaohs. IT BITES - Yellow Christian

18 July 2023, 09:05 PM	#7
linesiders 2024 SubLV41 Pledge Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: RedSox Nation Watch: U Talkn Bout Wilis Posts: 5,499	Find one you like and post photos here for comment to be safe. Good looking can be a little ratty if it has some charm ; ) __________________ I'm a sailor peg. And I've lost my leg. Climbing up the top sails. I've lost my leg!

27 July 2023, 02:57 AM	#20
TuRo "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Real Name: Paul Location: Cantabrigia - G.B Watch: ing the detectives Posts: 2,811	Be additional 15-20 % buyers premium usually hence I don't use auctions... but yes an ok price agreed....imho auction house make chunks of money - 12-15% seller fees and similar buyers fees. Tbh it's a complete con, unless you want to shift something quietly/without too much forensic assessment....I could share many stories, as could Jose, on the vagaries of auction sales and the daft actions of buyers and nefarious dodgy sellers incl BIG retailers lumbered with dubious watches they can't retail !!! __________________ Thieves and fools and long travelled soldiers, A candid light exposes their homes. Human falter, people bellowed from their homes. And houses, there's fools and long reigning pharaohs. IT BITES - Yellow Christian

2 August 2023, 03:08 AM	#22
TuRo "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Real Name: Paul Location: Cantabrigia - G.B Watch: ing the detectives Posts: 2,811	No hard and fast rule as ADs could mix and match but 7206 rivet was late really for 69/70, but some dealers fitted in UK (and they would fit a rubber tropic too) from old 'discounted stock' esp on 5513/1016/1675 and Tudor Subs my dealer Upchurch told me in the 80s. So tbh if you are looking for one it's a Rolex 9315 folded link - Rolex Clasp and Rolex Blades - that's 90-95% of the designation I'd suggest It becomes a bit hazy on the Shield introduction to clasp. I might be a year or so off. The first Tudors to get the 'Shield Dial' were circa late 68 early 69 for the dial (34mm got it first I recall).... and then the move to the clasps happened a couple of years afterwards albeit with Rolex blades. Ps Some C and I (the flatter equal width 3 link) in North America mkt possibly too, but I'm not sure. They are a much inferior bracelet in feel and shape too imho. __________________ Thieves and fools and long travelled soldiers, A candid light exposes their homes. Human falter, people bellowed from their homes. And houses, there's fools and long reigning pharaohs. IT BITES - Yellow Christian

13 July 2023, 02:57 PM	#2
alwayshere "TRF" Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Australia Posts: 1,559	from memory, the 7021 doesn't have quickset so the 9411 is a bit more modern from that perspective. Otherwise they largely look the same. Dial quality in the tudor subs have always been a mixed bag. Heaps of them have dial pimples / rot. I think the later 9411 tends to be okay and the earlier 7021 as well. I think for a good example, be prepared to pay more than $10K, especially for a blue dial.

13 July 2023, 03:58 PM	#3
996marty "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2019 Location: Uk Watch: RolexGMT/Tudor7928 Posts: 4,180	IMG_2023-6-28-234653.jpg This is a 9411/0 that I have just literally bought it’s come from the original owner it’s had plenty of wrist time and it shows it but it’s hopefully all there. These are watches that have always fascinated me so I jumped at the chance to buy it and it’ll be a keeper. Antiquorum have one up for auction if that helps.

19 July 2023, 04:06 AM	#8
Dom9 "TRF" Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Real Name: Dom Location: United Kingdom Watch: SD16600 & 9411 Posts: 472	Good luck with the search; the 9411 is my favourite Sub of any variety, especially in blue!

19 July 2023, 07:55 AM	#9
suligeo 2024 Pledge Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: USA Posts: 597	Love the blue 9411. If you like it, send me DM https://www.instagram.com/vintage_georgex/

20 July 2023, 05:09 AM	#12
996marty "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2019 Location: Uk Watch: RolexGMT/Tudor7928 Posts: 4,180	Nice one that George is offering for sale

20 July 2023, 09:20 PM	#13
suligeo 2024 Pledge Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: USA Posts: 597	Thanks Dom9 Yes my 9411 is for sale. https://www.instagram.com/vintage_georgex/

26 July 2023, 09:33 AM	#14
mutter "TRF" Member Join Date: Jul 2023 Location: California Posts: 3	Were you the winner of the 7021 on Antiquorum earlier today? Any thoughts from people about the price on the one that sold at Antiquorum (Monaco)... feels low compared to what's gone before, should that be the target price now?

26 July 2023, 04:45 PM	#16
Dom9 "TRF" Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Real Name: Dom Location: United Kingdom Watch: SD16600 & 9411 Posts: 472	Link? Market certainly seems to be softening somewhat but... they aren't making any more of them! Always loved the 4/5-digit Rolex but since I got my 9411s, I've given up chasing anything else (for now) - such lovely things.

26 July 2023, 04:55 PM	#17
996marty "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2019 Location: Uk Watch: RolexGMT/Tudor7928 Posts: 4,180	TUDOR REF. 7021 SUBMARINER SNOWFLAKE STEEL Tudor Lot 91: TUDOR REF. 7021 SUBMARINER SNOWFLAKE STEEL Est: €2,000 EUR - €4,000 EUR Sold: €5,000 EUR Antiquorum Genève SA July 25, 2023

27 July 2023, 02:11 AM	#19
bogo "TRF" Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Real Name: Bobby Location: San Francisco Posts: 32	Did not bid on the Antiquorum watch. I was surprised by the price though. Good for whomever won it.

2 August 2023, 01:46 AM	#21
Dwatcher91 "TRF" Member Join Date: Jul 2023 Location: New York City Posts: 6	Hey All, do we know what the original bracelet for a 7016 or 7021 sub from 1970?

2 August 2023, 10:07 AM	#23
Dwatcher91 "TRF" Member Join Date: Jul 2023 Location: New York City Posts: 6	Some knowledge right there ^ thanks so much for the detailed response. I’ve actually been seeing a lot of the 7021’s with a 7836 bracelet and either 380, 382 or 580 end links. Assuming this was the other option? Or is there a possibility a lot of these got swapped in later? I also have seen “period-correct” thrown around alongside rivet bracelets - but I assume this is just a fancy way of saying “around about that era”. Agreed, the C&I bracelets look a bit thin and flimsy. I see those less, but not uncommonly. Thanks again

2 August 2023, 04:17 PM	#24
TuRo "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Real Name: Paul Location: Cantabrigia - G.B Watch: ing the detectives Posts: 2,811	Yes indeed. In the UK a 7836 could also be fitted, and saved the buyer a few ££ over a 9315, and it has the clasp aesthetic of the hitherto 7206. Many, first year production, 1969 watches for sale with 7836 shown have Tudor clasps so I suspect perhaps swapped out entirely, or service clasp. Ps - This 69/70 bracelet period is made tricky because the 7206 introduced in circa 54 was being discontinued and discounted, the 7836 introduced in circa 67 was plentiful, and the newly introduced, in circa 1969, 9315 was in short supply for Rolex as well as Tudor. __________________ Thieves and fools and long travelled soldiers, A candid light exposes their homes. Human falter, people bellowed from their homes. And houses, there's fools and long reigning pharaohs. IT BITES - Yellow Christian

4 August 2023, 01:25 PM	#25
Dwatcher91 "TRF" Member Join Date: Jul 2023 Location: New York City Posts: 6	Well to save some extra quid it makes sense then. Yeh service clasps seems like the ticket. Didn’t know that was something they swapped in. Right, ok. Well anything before around 67 I’m seeing 7026 or C&I’s and then more and more after that seem to transition over. Well I’m considering picking up a 7021 from a local dealer soon. Im unable to share any photos here but the serial says 74xxxx. It’s a 1970 blue dial and what I’m reading is confusing me a bit - black dials tended to sit around the 74xxxx to 78xxxx whilst blue around the 62xxxx. Maybe this was specifically for the 7016 though and the 7021 was different. Any insight you can provide would be greatly appreciated! Happy to send some photos if you give me an email or something to send to.

4 August 2023, 07:45 PM	#26
linesiders 2024 SubLV41 Pledge Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: RedSox Nation Watch: U Talkn Bout Wilis Posts: 5,499	619XXX to 627XXX serial 7016 Subs are the Semi Pointed Crown Guard stamped 7528 on caseback, are usually Rose dialed but include Blue SWISS only dials. 7016 and 7021 start 730K serial , this includes the blue. C&I were very common on Tudor thru mid / late 70s in USA __________________ I'm a sailor peg. And I've lost my leg. Climbing up the top sails. I've lost my leg!

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