5508 Submariner advice

[cajuntiger]

A friend has inherited a 5508 from her Father who purchased it between 1958-59 while serving on a Sub in the Navy.

Serial number is 400XXX indicating 1959...and based on the lume that appears correct. The dial has no reading from a geiger counter, but glows fully when exposed to UV, the glow is even and bright then slowly fades out when the light source is turned off. The lume plots on the dial are mostly fully intact and in excellent condition, they have a pleasant light yellow tone...but after exposed to light they have a hint of green for an extended time.

The crystal is toast, but after a few attempts with poly watch I can finally see the dial and it looks great. The glossy dial is in excellent condition and the paint is clean and not faded

The hands by appearances alone look to match the dial and lume nicely and appear to be of similar age as the rest of the watch.
But based on some research the hands appear to be just slightly shorter than they should be. Also they appear to be chrome, not gold toned.

According to this they state that in 1959 the "...The hands are made from a metal alloy that was Rhodium plated. They are also flat on top, a design that came to be known by collectors as "Gilt Hands." When the hands move about the face of the dial, the sweep-seconds hand appears to lightly graze the "Chapter" ring of the minute track. When it briefly glides over the minute hand, they are perfectly aligned.".
These seem to be just slightly short.

Can anyone weigh in on the hands or thoughts in general on this reference and example.

After a bit of Polywatch:


Before polywatch and with bezel:

[Dan S]

I would have thought that 1959 lume should be hot on a Geiger counter.

[cajuntiger]

Originally Posted by Dan S

I would have thought that 1959 lume should be hot on a Geiger counter.

This is all I have found so far, specifically talking about 1959 5508:

The luminous material on the dial and hands was manually applied Tritium. The glow that emanates from the Tritium material on the dial and hands is even and relatively bright when exposed to UV light. It is in stark contrast compared to the faint speckled glow that comes from Radium. The Tritium also has a relatively low Geiger reading. Please see Luminous Material section for more examples and detailed information.



more info here:
https://rolexhaven.com/luminous-material.html

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by cajuntiger

This is all I have found so far, specifically talking about 1959 5508:

The luminous material on the dial and hands was manually applied Tritium. The glow that emanates from the Tritium material on the dial and hands is even and relatively bright when exposed to UV light. It is in stark contrast compared to the faint speckled glow that comes from Radium. The Tritium also has a relatively low Geiger reading. Please see Luminous Material section for more examples and detailed information.



more info here:
https://rolexhaven.com/luminous-material.html

That's very interesting. 1959 seems early for tritium, but that appears to be a reliable source.

[cajuntiger]

Originally Posted by Dan S

That's very interesting. 1959 seems early for tritium, but that appears to be a reliable source.

Agree, when I first test the Geiger counter I was very surprised at the results.
If you read the link I added he goes into further details including:
"...Early Tritium dials were not identified as such until about 1962 when Rolex began to add a small round Lume plot under the 6:00 marker, sometimes called "Exclamation Dial." In 1963, Rolex marked dials with Tritium using a thin silver line..."

[Juhuatai]

Original dial for sure imo. The hands and insert are later replacement.

Your friend inherited a very nice watch.

[cajuntiger]

Originally Posted by Juhuatai

Original dial for sure imo. The hands and insert are later replacement.

Your friend inherited a very nice watch.

Are you sure about the bezel? Are you saying this because there is no red paint?

[Juhuatai]

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vint...r-t266367.html

That insert is not found on anything that early, so yeah it's replacement. Should be red triangle or a variation of the long 5.

[linesiders]

Serial 400 is earlier 58. My 5508 was 488K and stamped III.1958, and radium.

I have run across Tudor and Rolex submariner from late 50s with perfect dials that were tritium rather than radium, like replaced before the more common service dial variants popped up in mid 60s (Silver Prints, etc). Could be one of those. Plots look tritium, like the service dials of the mid 70s, and not Radium (see below). We hear of many GMTs and Subs which should have radium dials, yet have mechanically applied Tritium plots (see beater 1959 5512 Square plots attached below).

I also learned the hard way that SOME items don't pick up on beta detectors, and only on Alpha detectors (help me Dan ; ) ) .

That insert is 70s or later. They made the MK3 (old naming convention) in a version for original No Crown Guard Bezels.

Hands look correct.

Adjusts Tinfoil Hat: Navy, on subs, ehh? Would not want a Radium Dialed Sub, on a Sub, a Nuclear Powered Sub. You would screw with all of the onboard detection equipment.

[cajuntiger]

He was on a Diesel sub according to his daughter...I determined year using this chart:
http://vintagerolexforum.info/vrf/index3.html

Im working on getting the caseback off to verify.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by linesiders

Serial 400 is earlier 58. My 5508 was 488K and stamped III.1958, and radium.

I have run across Tudor and Rolex submariner from late 50s with perfect dials that were tritium rather than radium, like replaced before the more common service dial variants popped up in mid 60s (Silver Prints, etc). Could be one of those. Plots look tritium, like the service dials of the mid 70s, and not Radium (see below). We hear of many GMTs and Subs which should have radium dials, yet have mechanically applied Tritium plots (see beater 1959 5512 Square plots attached below).

I also learned the hard way that SOME items don't pick up on beta detectors, and only on Alpha detectors (help me Dan ; ) ) .

That insert is 70s or later. They made the MK3 (old naming convention) in a version for original No Crown Guard Bezels.

Hands look correct.

Adjusts Tinfoil Hat: Navy, on subs, ehh? Would not want a Radium Dialed Sub, on a Sub, a Nuclear Powered Sub. You would screw with all of the onboard detection equipment.

Very interesting take on the dial.

Regarding radium on nuclear powered subs, you may be familiar with the Lemania military-issued chronographs. They made them without lume for the subs, just black-painted markers. On my wanted list, actually.

[cajuntiger]

Found this post from Marcello:
https://www.rolexforums.com/showpost...6&postcount=17

he said they started at "end of 50's"

[linesiders]

Originally Posted by cajuntiger

He was on a Diesel sub according to his daughter...I determined year using this chart:
http://vintagerolexforum.info/vrf/index3.html

Im working on getting the caseback off to verify.

Originally Posted by Dan S

Very interesting take on the dial.

Regarding radium on nuclear powered subs, you may be familiar with the Lemania military-issued chronographs. They made them without lume for the subs, just black-painted markers. On my wanted list, actually.

Originally Posted by cajuntiger

Found this post from Marcello:
https://www.rolexforums.com/showpost...6&postcount=17

he said they started at "end of 50's"

There was also some very nasty other materials used in the late 50s. I believe Radium was finished in 60. I have had radium 1960 Tudors and handled 1960 radium 5512s

Man, miss Marcello here.

[cajuntiger]

Originally Posted by linesiders

Man, miss Marcello here.

very much missed!!

[cajuntiger]

[Juhuatai]

Did you end up buying it from your friend?

@linesiders
John, the minute hand should reach the edge of the chapter ring no? Looks short to me here.

[cajuntiger]

Originally Posted by Juhuatai

@linesiders
John, the minute hand should reach the edge of the chapter ring no? Looks short to me here.

Both the minute hand and the sweep hand are same length, and both reach just past the minute hash marks...but short of the chapter ring.

[cajuntiger]

Originally Posted by linesiders

I also learned the hard way that SOME items don't pick up on beta detectors, and only on Alpha detectors (help me Dan ; ) ) .

BTW- Im using a Radiation Alert Ranger that "detects Alpha down to 2 MeV. Detects Beta down to .16 MeV; typical detection efficiency at 1 MeV is approx. 25%. Detects Gamma and X-rays down to 10 KeV through the detector window. 3340 CPM/mR/hr (137Cs). Smallest detectable level for 125I is .02 µCi at contact."

[linesiders]

I wouldn't be surprised if the dial and the hands were replaced within a couple years of a watch being purchased. Which could explain the slightly shorter hands. I feel greater than 90% that this watch left the factory with a radium dial in hands, and then were quickly thereafter replaced with the tritium. Based on not reading on a Geiger counter. Some of these, not all of them may be half, had white second hands. It is also possible that the hands were replaced in the 70s when the insert was replaced. Plenty of opportunity for normal service parts to be on this watch. It's still stunning

[greekbum]

the hands on the watch are later 1967 and after curved hands and are the wrong size. The correct ones are flat steel gilt radium with the minute and sweep second hand at 13mm from center hole to tip. yours are 12mm. If your looking for a set i have a few pairs radium flat steel gilt available. 1959 on a geiger counter some are lower than others but 59 is not high like earlier years

[cajuntiger]

Originally Posted by greekbum

the hands on the watch are later 1967 and after curved hands and are the wrong size. The correct ones are flat steel gilt radium with the minute and sweep second hand at 13mm from center hole to tip. yours are 12mm. If your looking for a set i have a few pairs radium flat steel gilt available. 1959 on a geiger counter some are lower than others but 59 is not high like earlier years

Thanks Nick, but did you note the dial is tritium? I hope all is well...I still have the GMT you sold me too many years ago :)

[linesiders]

Originally Posted by greekbum

the hands on the watch are later 1967 and after curved hands and are the wrong size. The correct ones are flat steel gilt radium with the minute and sweep second hand at 13mm from center hole to tip. yours are 12mm. If your looking for a set i have a few pairs radium flat steel gilt available. 1959 on a geiger counter some are lower than others but 59 is not high like earlier years

400K serial - this is early 58 so should be radium. some of those are pretty high on the geiger ; ) - not a 59 watch

[cajuntiger]

better shot of dial