GMT master II 16710 - papers or no papers…

[aboutime]

Hi everyone!

My first post to what is a forum of great insight and discussion I’ve enjoyed reading.

I’ve been patiently searching for a gmt master II red/black watch for several months and recently narrowed my focus on two have I believe are very good examples.

One is a 2000/1 P serial with warranty paper and tag. It appears well cared for but I noticed the bezel rotates more smoothly in one direction vs the other. And the safety lock doesn’t shut that smoothly. Presume that can be normal given age and potentially how the previous owner used it… The second piece is a Y serial which i believe is a year or two newer. It is a Watch only piece and possibly overall better than the first example. The one odd thing I noticed is the clasp code said ‘P11’ which I understand that to be a 1991 clasp… however it has solid end links and has the safety lock which I didn’t think existed then?

The first is slightly more expensive than the second by a factor of 400 USD.

I’m just keen on thoughts on what you guys and gals might do in this scenario. My intention is to buy to wear and have no immediate intention to on sell, more likely to hand down when the time is right.

I’m a long time Rolex fan owing a 2004/5 Rolex explorer II polar since new and recently added a 2024 Air King, I love them both to bits! It’s been a long time between drinks but the itch has to be scratched.

Thanks in advance!

[Actor07]

I am on the same search here in the US. The 16710 is a great choice because of the interchangeability of the three different aluminum bezel inserts. I will pay top dollar for papers and inserts. I will not sell this future acquisition but I want to get as perfect version as I can get for a watch that is close to two decades old.

[WS9D]

welcome to TRF.

First thing is to buy the seller. If they are a legit seller, I wouldn't put too much worry on papers and a tag, especially if you plan to never sell it. I bought mine w/o papers, but I trusted the seller as they are a highly reputable seller here on TRF.

In regards to clasp codes, Mine has a MA9 which is consistent with my D serial, is it possible it was outfitted with a newer PJ1 and maybe the J has worn to look like a 1? My MA9 is pretty worn and I had to look really hard with a 10x loop to make it out.

Also, do you have a service history for any of them? If not, you would be good to send it in to RSC for service at that age. The issues you mentioned with the first example will be taken care of. If you opt for the Y serial with no papers and send it for service, Rolex will confirm if it's authentic and issue you the 2-year service card for peace of mind.

happy hunting

[brandrea]

I’d pay up for the best example you can find with box and papers. I know that a full kit isn’t important to some, but it is to me.

You’ll also find that if you do go to sell it the full kit makes it more desirable in general.

Good luck. The years you are looking at are in the same range that I’ve been pondering. SEL, sapphire crystal, super luminova, holes case (later no holes).

[Tools]

Some folks put a lot of emphasis on their accessories. In my view an excellent example if a better choice than a marginal example with accessories. Naturally, there are some who will not consider anything without boxes and papers, but the vast majority of watches in the world do not have it all.

As to the bezel, the wire spring used to "click" the bezel is designed so that there is more pressure against the bezel when turning one way than the other. It is the same wire spring, that if clipped at the end becomes a Sub spring that only allows turning in one direction.

It is possible that clasps get changed from time to time. If a later code bothers you, look around while you are enjoying your excellent watch to see if you can score what you want. There is no value difference for this model.

[PepsiBezel]

Regarding the P-serial bezel not turning smoothly counterclockwise — that is likely due to the “old” shorter click spring used at that time. At some point near the end of the 16710, Rolex upgraded the click spring to be longer, and thus more easily/smoothly turns in both directions.

If you google “16710 Click Spring” or scroll about halfway down this article and you will see what I am referencing: https://www.minus4plus6.com/116710.php

Almost any Rolex AD that does service can easily replace it. I wouldn’t be surprised if they did it for free. The click spring it about as high tech as a paper clip, so it’s not a hard swap.

With that said, I wouldn’t let the bezel action be a factor in your decision.

I’d first look at overall condition (lugs, crown guards), I’d consider whether the bezel insert for that era (P and Y) was a serif insert or a possible replacement insert.

I do prefer watches to have papers, but I’d go condition first.

[0nly5iv3Digits]

Condition > Paperwork. Best to have both, ofc.

Also, yes it is normal for bezel action to be different clockwise vs. counterclockwise. It is a result of the clickspring.

[Bladeshot]

Buy the seller. Condition trumps papers.

Good luck! It’s a great reference.


Just another WIS who loves to trade.
@bladeandwatch1 on IG

[aboutime]

Amazing insights, thank you!!
I never knew about the rotation of the bezel having likely a smoother motion in one direction over another, and now understand the concept of the click spring, plus knowing that the operation of it shouldn’t be the determining factor and that it can be replaced easily helps.

The bezel on both models has the little ‘tail’ on the 2 (most obvious to my eye), and I believe those are the right fonts for the era. There is no history with either watch so I’m not certain if the bezels have been replaced or are the original item.

Another thing I’m curious about is the whether the bracelet springs should sit evenly between the lugs? Or if it doesn’t, is that a sign one lug has been polished more than the other. Again to my naked eye, both appear to be unpolished watches and pronounced edges (they look exactly like my 2004/5 explorer II which hasn’t been polished). The store person suggested that the bracelet springs do need to sit more on one side than the other giving an appearance that one lug might be thinner than the other.

The mention that the clasp code could be PJ1 vs P11 is a great call out. I’ll have to go back and check. My eyes are terrible and reading those details are freaking challenging! I’m bring a magnifying glass with me :)

My intent should I acquire this or any second hand Rolex is to bring immediately to RSC. Both sellers are bricks and mortar stores so I’m hoping there is some greater integrity when it comes to how they do business, though appreciate that is more wishful that reality. At least the google reviews seem to suggest their are reliable.

[Bazil]

Welcome to the forum and all the best for the chase on the GMT .. I’d rather pay a bit more knowing I’m getting top condition considering age of the watch .. finding a trustworthy highly rated dealer is important to me ..

[luk4s83]

Originally Posted by aboutime

Another thing I’m curious about is the whether the bracelet springs should sit evenly between the lugs? Or if it doesn’t, is that a sign one lug has been polished more than the other. Again to my naked eye, both appear to be unpolished watches and pronounced edges (they look exactly like my 2004/5 explorer II which hasn’t been polished). The store person suggested that the bracelet springs do need to sit more on one side than the other giving an appearance that one lug might be thinner than the other.

That's normal, the springbars can move a little bit left or right. You can literally do that with a toothpick. They shouldn't be sticking out from the holes though.
16710 is a fantastic reference and it's worth every penny. Get the best one you can afford. Ideally truly unpolished and at least with papers. You're gonna love it :)
If you want to learn more about 16710 check Watch Symposium Youtube channel.

[996marty]

The 16710 is a fabulous watch and you won’t be disappointed when you get one. Just buy the best one you can afford papers or not
I see you are in Australia are you looking at local sellers or further afield?

[rootbeer7]

Condition is number 1. Box can be bought on eBay and papers can be had through RSC service.

[minute_man]

Welcome to the Forum! Lots of solid advice on this thread.
Whatever the example you end up purchasing, have a clearly agreed return policy and take it straight to your nearsest RSC for a full service. I can't stress this enough.
Best of luck

[Deppe]

And be aware that you can no longer buy the different inserts from your AD or your RSC, so be sure to buy the watch with the configuration you want, or be prepared to spend some $$$ buying privately.

[karleone]

I would get the one in the best condition.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by aboutime

Hi everyone!

My first post to what is a forum of great insight and discussion I’ve enjoyed reading.

I’ve been patiently searching for a gmt master II red/black watch for several months and recently narrowed my focus on two have I believe are very good examples.

One is a 2000/1 P serial with warranty paper and tag. It appears well cared for but I noticed the bezel rotates more smoothly in one direction vs the other. And the safety lock doesn’t shut that smoothly. Presume that can be normal given age and potentially how the previous owner used it… The second piece is a Y serial which i believe is a year or two newer. It is a Watch only piece and possibly overall better than the first example. The one odd thing I noticed is the clasp code said ‘P11’ which I understand that to be a 1991 clasp… however it has solid end links and has the safety lock which I didn’t think existed then?

The first is slightly more expensive than the second by a factor of 400 USD.

I’m just keen on thoughts on what you guys and gals might do in this scenario. My intention is to buy to wear and have no immediate intention to on sell, more likely to hand down when the time is right.

I’m a long time Rolex fan owing a 2004/5 Rolex explorer II polar since new and recently added a 2024 Air King, I love them both to bits! It’s been a long time between drinks but the itch has to be scratched.

Thanks in advance!

Speaking for myself not a bit interested in the so called papers which in this case will be a outdated warranty so just a bit of paper. As for the box well its just a box and not the best box in the watch world. Always buy first the seller then condition of watch and whether any service history. If no service history budget in your price a full RSC service, after service you will get service papers or card and that will act like a full two year valid warranty. One other important thing, never rely on these so called papers or boxes to prove authenticity of any watch as these today are far easrier to fake than the watch.

[travisb]

Buy the seller. Condition is key but I'd also consider a full service upon taking delivery for piece of mind and an additional 2 year warranty.
Not important to some but I also prefer box and papers.

[PepsiBezel]

IMG_6947.jpeg

OP — sounds like both bezel inserts have serif font, which is nice.

For the clasp code, you can likely use your phone camera. Most will switch to macro mode if you hold it close to where the code is.

[joli160]

There are so many of this reference for sale that there is no need for you to compromise on anything.

Good quality watch with B&P should be easy to score. Better to pay a bit more for the best you can find

[1William]

I want it all if I can get them. Box, papers and a watch in good condition based on age. Don't settle. Pay up front or pay later.

[aboutime]

Originally Posted by 996marty

The 16710 is a fabulous watch and you won’t be disappointed when you get one. Just buy the best one you can afford papers or not
I see you are in Australia are you looking at local sellers or further afield?

I’ve checked chrono24 just to get a sense of what’s in the market and pricing across the globe. That said I’m old school and want to eyeball and hold the watch I’m likely to buy which limits my choices somewhat. I am heading to Tokyo in July and I know it’s like watch Disney land over there.

[aboutime]

Originally Posted by PepsiBezel

Attachment 1431918

OP — sounds like both bezel inserts have serif font, which is nice.

For the clasp code, you can likely use your phone camera. Most will switch to macro mode if you hold it close to where the code is.

Thank you! Great tip on the phone, I was going to bring a magnifying glass with me with Sherlock Holmes!

I think for the reference and year range I’m after the genuine bezels should have the serif front, where as the thinner font are much later years and / or are potentially service bezels?

[aboutime]

Originally Posted by travisb

Buy the seller. Condition is key but I'd also consider a full service upon taking delivery for piece of mind and an additional 2 year warranty.
Not important to some but I also prefer box and papers.

Absolutely, my plan is to have it straight to RSC for a once over and piece of mind if nothing else…

Many of you have advised ‘buy the seller’, by that I assume it means that the seller is of good standing?

[robertengel]

From my personal experience

I bought the same watch without papers, the box is kinda useless and papers arent essential to enjoying it, BUT if I would do it again I would buy with papers as I regret not spending a little extra.. Not sure why...but it makes it feel more complete.

[Ravager135]

Same advice as above. Buy the seller first. I also prefer box and papers, but I can understand why for some it is unnecessary. The pre-six digit GMT bezels do not move as smoothly in both directions. This is not unusual as others have said. I have not handled any five digit GMTs that were THAT old so I cannot speak to if the bidirectional movement becomes more of an issue with time, but they certainly didn't feel equal when new.

[goheel]

Originally Posted by PepsiBezel

Attachment 1431918

OP — sounds like both bezel inserts have serif font, which is nice.

For the clasp code, you can likely use your phone camera. Most will switch to macro mode if you hold it close to where the code is.

What’s the importance of having serif font bezel?

[wyguy]

I was just looking at several options over on Bob's Watches just for reference. I would love me some Coke:

https://www.bobswatches.com/rolex-gm...6710-coke.html

[luk4s83]

Originally Posted by wyguy

I was just looking at several options over on Bob's Watches just for reference. I would love me some Coke:

https://www.bobswatches.com/rolex-gm...6710-coke.html

Looks like a great dealer, they also have brand new Rolex watches available for purchase right now, no waitlist, just a "slight" premium
In case you were wondering why it takes eleven years to get a Rolex from AD...

[worldofoyster]

i like it with paper