Is interest in AP sinking?

[Watchman001]

Originally Posted by vliberman

If u bothered to look at reference materials rather than shoot from the hip, you would have gained a detailed knowledge on innovation wrt Rolex. Now, none of the items u listed would be innovation by AP and in most cases innovation at all. Tourbillon was introduced in 1795 by Bruguet. Perpetual Calendar in 1762 by Musge, Minute Repetear by Quare circa 1700 and so on.,

Do u know what was introduced recently? Silicon hairspring, care to guess by who? That is right, Rolex. PP now mostly exclusively uses silicon and so on. Yet some collectors still perceive that Rolex is all about color of bezel.

Great, a silicon hairspring. AP has innovated with materials too, such as FC, ceramic, etc. I don’t see Rolex offering any of the above, so hard to take your argument seriously. Omega is more innovative than Rolex by a mile.

[vliberman]

Originally Posted by Watchman001

Great, a silicon hairspring. AP has innovated with materials too, such as FC, ceramic, etc. I don’t see Rolex offering any of the above, so hard to take your argument seriously. Omega is more innovative than Rolex by a mile.

A bit puzzling.. u either don’t understand the significance of or what it took to accomplish.. do you know how many companies in the world are even capable of producing a hairspring? Let alone to innovate. Something like a cylindrical hairspring is a lot more advanced than anything u listed there..

It seems that you lack historical perspective on why complications you referenced outside of minute repeater are not as important as you might perceive. You have to study 2000s and what happened with complications including triple axis tourbillons and others…

[GW44]

Just out of curiosity, why the adolescent text speak?

It’s “you” not “u”

Cheers M8

[mickyd329]

Originally Posted by GW44

Just out of curiosity, why the adolescent text speak?

It’s “you” not “u”

Cheers M8

[RTG]

Originally Posted by Watchman001

Great, a silicon hairspring. AP has innovated with materials too, such as FC, ceramic, etc. I don’t see Rolex offering any of the above, so hard to take your argument seriously. Omega is more innovative than Rolex by a mile.

Tudor (AKA Rolex Skunk Works) makes titanium, ceramic and carbon timepieces. It's not rocket science. The products that work best eventually trickle down to the time tested Rolex lineup. Not everything new works out well after a decade, or ages well.

Like Toyota with trucks. Nothing goes into a Rolex that hasn't been tested and vetted for many years. Evolution not revolution. Rolex is reliable. Rolex is refined. Rolex is safe. Rolex is confidence and that's why they are #1.

[johnsonsxusfrt]

I may have to start a new thread: Is interest in Patek sinking?

Because the recently discontinued 5980r has dropped from $120K earlier this year to $85K (multiple listings on MODA). That's barley a 15% premium over retail. I may have to pick one up

[GW44]

Originally Posted by johnsonsxusfrt

I may have to start a new thread: Is interest in Patek sinking?

Because the recently discontinued 5980r has dropped from $120K earlier this year to $85K (multiple listings on MODA). That's barley a 15% premium over retail. I may have to pick one up

Yeah, quick the sky is falling in………

[Vince_76]

Originally Posted by johnsonsxusfrt

I may have to start a new thread: Is interest in Patek sinking?

Because the recently discontinued 5980r has dropped from $120K earlier this year to $85K (multiple listings on MODA). That's barley a 15% premium over retail. I may have to pick one up

Damn that’s a good deal.

Yep, everything is trending down it’s not just AP.

[honeybutter]

Originally Posted by vliberman

My argument works even if u just use RO models vs any and all PP sports models.. the reason to introduce ROO and CODE as they are sports models as well and not sure why would u exclude them? I am including Aquanaut of PP which is arguably less desirable model than Nautilus.

The only reason I exclude non sports watches from comparison as AP doesn’t make any so I am not sure what to compare PP non sports models too. If one assume CODE is non sports model, PP non sports retain much higher percentage of value…

Reading the stupidity you’ve been spewing in this thread is unbearable. The constant misinformation, goalpost shifting and backtracking is wild. I’ve never felt more compelled to tell someone to shut up. Thanks for making me have to write my first reply ever just to call you out on your bullshit.

[huncho]

Originally Posted by vliberman

Well, let’s start with the idea that Rolex constantly innovates within existing models. For example, it would introduce a new concept into the existing model without announcing it. I am going to reference a few articles that describe both innovations and said concept. You are welcome to do likewise on AP as I would like to educate myself.

https://www.the1916company.com/blog/...novations.html

https://quillandpad.com/2023/09/05/t...years-reprise/

https://www.hodinkee. com/articles/a...alance-springs

https://bestwallclock.com/rolexs-gam...innovations-4/

Now, I hope you help me to identify movement related innovations that AP successfully introduced into its mainstream models the way Rolex did.

you asked for examples so i gave some to you and you completely discarded them because now you want it to only apply to mainstream models...ok

your 4th source (bestwallclock) has things such as introducing ceramic bezels and you consider that innovation, but yet when AP makes full ceramic watches which include perpetual calendars (and also in openworked) it's apparently not. nothing anyone here gives you is enough to change your mind because you just move the goal posts so i'm just gonna say let's agree to disagree and i'm gonna bow out

[vliberman]

Originally Posted by huncho

you asked for examples so i gave some to you and you completely discarded them because now you want it to only apply to mainstream models...ok

your 4th source (bestwallclock) has things such as introducing ceramic bezels and you consider that innovation, but yet when AP makes full ceramic watches which include perpetual calendars (and also in openworked) it's apparently not. nothing anyone here gives you is enough to change your mind because you just move the goal posts so i'm just gonna say let's agree to disagree and i'm gonna bow out

my apologies, i do owe u a response. You are absolutely correct, these are works of art. Plus add RD4 to the list that someone else mentioned. Exceptional horology. Bravo!

Now, if that was the majority of what AP outputs, best company in the world. Stand down Greubel and others.

[vliberman]

Originally Posted by johnsonsxusfrt

I may have to start a new thread: Is interest in Patek sinking?

Because the recently discontinued 5980r has dropped from $120K earlier this year to $85K (multiple listings on MODA). That's barley a 15% premium over retail. I may have to pick one up

that might be an interesting thread... get opinion of other collectors on their perception of the brand and interest therein.... aren't these forums designed for that?

[conkers]

Originally Posted by vliberman

that might be an interesting thread... get opinion of other collectors on their perception of the brand and interest therein.... aren't these forums designed for that?

Unfortunately most of the collectors have left TRF since the vast majority of conversations now revolve around pricing and resale.

[mickyd329]

Originally Posted by huncho

you asked for examples so i gave some to you and you completely discarded them because now you want it to only apply to mainstream models...ok

your 4th source (bestwallclock) has things such as introducing ceramic bezels and you consider that innovation, but yet when AP makes full ceramic watches which include perpetual calendars (and also in openworked) it's apparently not. nothing anyone here gives you is enough to change your mind because you just move the goal posts so i'm just gonna say let's agree to disagree and i'm gonna bow out

There is no point in debating with this gentleman. Logic and data is only used to skew in favor of his argument, no matter what. This is the same guy who owns a Urwerk and touts the brand. Nothing wrong with Urwerk as I think they make some interesting and unique pieces, but the majority of their watches have base movements sourced from Zenith or GP. Again, nothing wrong with that either, but not exactly the innovation he holds so dear. He also thinks his Rolex Skydweller is a technical tour de force. Nothing wrong with this watch either. I used to own one and the AC functionality with the ring command bezel is cool, but not exactly a technical marvel at 14mm thick case. If they did it in a 8 or 9mm case, I'd call it innovation too.

Originally Posted by conkers

Unfortunately most of the collectors have left TRF since the vast majority of conversations now revolve around pricing and resale.

A lot of truth to that Roger..

We actually spun off a small local group of collectors from TRF and created a group chat. We have GTG's, share ideas, knowledge, and do a whole lot of enabling (slippery slope BTW.). Just a group of passionate collectors that love talking watches where value retention or brand bashing is never a topic. It's like what TRF used to be.

[2000-NJDEVILS]

Originally Posted by APhound

I have them all. Nautilus, aquanaut, complicated Pateks, royal oaks, offshores, code, etc. prob have more money in my pateks so not bias here. The APs are so much more exciting and I fantasize of owning them so much more than I do pateks. I never day dream about pateks but I get on the AP site all the time and am blown away with what they do across the board.
And as far as value, I think I’m down on every single watch I own. Who cares. This isn’t my job.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well said - You the man!

[John Doyle]

Agree 100% with you OP, AP is sinking fast and hard as they haven't been able to produce anything remotely interesting since 2018 + their collabs are more than questionable.

[ButtButt]

I read through this whole thread and now my head hurts

I always cringe when I read posts talking about which watch to buy that will hold value or what do you think this or that watch will be worth in 1 million years. If you have to worry so much about value then IMHO you can't afford to be in this hobby.

Oh and some anecdotal evidence on interest dropping across the board... when I first went to the VC boutique 1-2 years ago to ask about an Overseas they told me the wait was 8 years, recently I received a message from the SA there that said if I put a deposit now I'm guaranteed the watch in 3-6 months

[conkers]

Originally Posted by mickyd329

A lot of truth to that Roger..

We actually spun off a small local group of collectors from TRF and created a group chat. We have GTG's, share ideas, knowledge, and do a whole lot of enabling (slippery slope BTW.). Just a group of passionate collectors that love talking watches where value retention or brand bashing is never a topic. It's like what TRF used to be.

A much better strategy than getting involved in the endless inane threads here!

[Mercutio]

Thank your for the initial posting of the CEO article (before this thread descended to flame wars). A certainly very interesting read. I believe the CEO is in alignment that the COVID Years had been an anomaly not to be repeated, and that demand is returning to more stable historic trends. It’ll be interesting to see how maintaining output will play out - I believe it should be a success, and the right thing to do. The bottom line will not be hit terribly, as a lot of growth was frontloaded (not volume-wise, but in terms of unbelievably aggressive pricing).

What will be challenging is attracting new customers to the brand. Without those, the strategy of simply maintaining a one-watch equity story will be pressurized by competitors scooping up AP clients unserved. And here I am with the part of this thread claiming that overall interest in AP is waning.

Second, I still wonder how AP will navigate itself out of the one trick pony camp. I believe that all controversies regarding the CODE design left aside, making this the must-buy watch before an RO is on the table has damaged the image of the model beyond repair. I may be highly biased, but whenever I see a CODE, I can’t help but think of „bridge watch“ to what people actually wanted.

Chrono24 seems to confirm though that the heydays for AP are over - I’ve been following the marketplace for quite a while, and I see the same watches over and over again, inventory doesn’t seem to move.

All in all, as a true collector, I very much welcome the normalization, as I can think of one or two models I’d love to add from AP (so far, my portfolio is way too Rolex heavy, a brand which I grew very much out of due to the very silly AD games, but more importantly, the infantilization and instagram-ation)

[GW44]

Originally Posted by mickyd329

A lot of truth to that Roger..

We actually spun off a small local group of collectors from TRF and created a group chat. We have GTG's, share ideas, knowledge, and do a whole lot of enabling (slippery slope BTW.). Just a group of passionate collectors that love talking watches where value retention or brand bashing is never a topic. It's like what TRF used to be.

Sounds a happy environment to share with like minded collectors and not speculators or the market value bores to deal with Micky

I'm on a similar, but very small, AP group here in the UK.