Are you ok with "Swiss made" watches having Chinese-made parts?

[Cru Jones]

(duplicate post)

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

Here is what qualifies a watch as being "Swiss made" according to the the Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry FH (https://www.fhs.swiss/eng/whoweare.html):

"Art. 1a Definition of the Swiss watch

A watch is to be regarded as a Swiss watch if:

a. its technical development has taken place in Switzerland;

1. in the case of exclusively mechanical watches, at least the mechanical
construction and prototyping of the watch as a whole,

2. in the case of watches that are not exclusively mechanical, at least the
mechanical construction and prototyping of the watch as a whole, together
with the conception of the printed circuit or circuits, the display and the
software;

a bis. its movement is Swiss;

b. its movement has been cased up in Switzerland;

c. final inspection by the manufacturer took place in Switzerland and

d. at least 60% of the manufacturing costs is generated in Switzerland"

(https://www.fhs.swiss/file/8/Guide_FH_v.5_en.pdf)

When reading the definition, the reference to “its movement is Swiss” is interesting…. The definition does not require the movement’s parts, or even the entire movement, to be made in Switzerland. Only that the movement is “Swiss” (whatever that means….I guess at least its design or history?), that the movement be put in the watch case and inspected in Switzerland and that the watch’s total manufacturing cost be at least 60% Swiss.

“Swiss made” really feels like pure marketing blah blah blah…..

Oh well. As they say, one should learn something new each day. That one thing doesn’t have to necessarily be a positive thing.

I just feel bad that it took me so many years of following watches to only learn this now.

I really wish we had a better vision of which watchmakers do what vis-a-vis “Swiss made”. What do Rolex, Omega, JLC, Patek, AP, VC, IWC, Cartier, Breitling, Breguet, Panerai, the expensive independents, etc. etc. etc. do?

[INC]

I think it is like to eat original Chinese food. They are very delicious! As long as you don't ask what you are eating.

And please do not forget the eternal wisdom:



Ignorance is bliss

[ajw45]

China has the capability to produce precision parts as good as anywhere else. If they can make millions of iPhones I'm sure they can and do make some machined components to a level of precision equal needed for great bracelets and screws. I have no issue as long as the product quality is maintained and priced accordingly.

Whether a brand buys from a vendor or manufactures in house, ultimately they are responsible for quality control. If a bracelet is crappy, it's not because of where it was made, it's because the brand has decided that's acceptable either from lack of final qc, vendor qc, or internal mnfr. All the big "luxury" groups will look for cost savings wherever they can until people stop buying. It's not about where things are made as much as how cheap the brand wants to make it.

This is entirely different from the Swiss Made issue, that's a modern european form of commercial imperialism. Whether it's the "Made in Switzerland" but mostly in China or "Made in Ialy" in Chinese sweatshops or "Made in France" with foreign migrant labor it's just the way these days. I don't see a lot of tea farms in the UK.... Buyer beware. This is part of the reason that indie brands are doing so well, it's not just hype or the new new, it's that the legacy brands have gone too far and value conscious customers are done getting fleeced.

[tigerpac]

Some brands like Moser have protested the lax Swiss standard.

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/h-...ger-swiss-made

[ChetBaker]

A single e-mail to the top 20 manufacturers asking them the % value manufactured in Switzerland, which location and which parts exactly and the responses will be very instructive.

[Calatrava r]

It is a moot issue as the Swiss governing agency requires 80% of the production cost to occur in the country but only 50% of the parts must be made there. Just looked this up and who knows if it is accurate but there is no question foreign made parts are allowed to be used in "Swiss Made" watches and movements. Doesn't much matter if we like or not. If one does not like it, there are probably some higher end brands where everything is made in house. But we are probably talking mainsprings, hairsprings and screws and it just may not be cost efficient to make those other than where they are made now.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by tigerpac

Some brands like Moser have protested the lax Swiss standard.

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/h-...ger-swiss-made

I didn’t know that, thanks for posting

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by ajw45

China has the capability to produce precision parts as good as anywhere else. If they can make millions of iPhones I'm sure they can and do make some machined components to a level of precision equal needed for great bracelets and screws. I have no issue as long as the product quality is maintained and priced accordingly.

Whether a brand buys from a vendor or manufactures in house, ultimately they are responsible for quality control. If a bracelet is crappy, it's not because of where it was made, it's because the brand has decided that's acceptable either from lack of final qc, vendor qc, or internal mnfr. All the big "luxury" groups will look for cost savings wherever they can until people stop buying. It's not about where things are made as much as how cheap the brand wants to make it.

This is entirely different from the Swiss Made issue, that's a modern european form of commercial imperialism. Whether it's the "Made in Switzerland" but mostly in China or "Made in Ialy" in Chinese sweatshops or "Made in France" with foreign migrant labor it's just the way these days. I don't see a lot of tea farms in the UK.... Buyer beware. This is part of the reason that indie brands are doing so well, it's not just hype or the new new, it's that the legacy brands have gone too far and value conscious customers are done getting fleeced.

That’s also an interesting take

[MrGoat]

Originally Posted by ajw45

China has the capability to produce precision parts as good as anywhere else. If they can make millions of iPhones I'm sure they can and do make some machined components to a level of precision equal needed for great bracelets and screws. I have no issue as long as the product quality is maintained and priced accordingly.

Whether a brand buys from a vendor or manufactures in house, ultimately they are responsible for quality control. If a bracelet is crappy, it's not because of where it was made, it's because the brand has decided that's acceptable either from lack of final qc, vendor qc, or internal mnfr. All the big "luxury" groups will look for cost savings wherever they can until people stop buying. It's not about where things are made as much as how cheap the brand wants to make it.

This is entirely different from the Swiss Made issue, that's a modern european form of commercial imperialism. Whether it's the "Made in Switzerland" but mostly in China or "Made in Ialy" in Chinese sweatshops or "Made in France" with foreign migrant labor it's just the way these days. I don't see a lot of tea farms in the UK.... Buyer beware. This is part of the reason that indie brands are doing so well, it's not just hype or the new new, it's that the legacy brands have gone too far and value conscious customers are done getting fleeced.

Nah, that’s exactly the issue.

When companies outsource to anyone (especially known creators of replicas) it throws them into the same pool as Swiss made watches from the manufacturer.

If the case is made in China (or anyone else beyond Rolex) and China (or anyone else beyond Rolex) also makes the replicas, how do you determine validity of a genuine watch or any of its parts now or in the future?

Doing such would just open the door and give replica makers the ability to perfect their craft even more than has already been shown today and be the demise of the Swiss watch industry.


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[Easy E]

I just want to have fewer 32 issues.

[Easy E]

If the parts are engineered and made to a particular spec, given that they are made by machine, does it really matter where the machine is located? That said, I would prefer my Swiss watch(es) to be more Swiss

[MrGoat]

Originally Posted by Easy E

If the parts are engineered and made to a particular spec, given that they are made by machine, does it really matter where the machine is located?

It does when the same machine can be spitting out replicas whenever it’s not in use producing genuine watches.


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[Easy E]

True enough, but that is a separate issue, but I do get your point.


I have have several friends along the way that work in manufacturing, a couple in the audio electronics and the other in plastics. They have busted their foreign mfg plant putting out their products in the secondary. It's real bad.

[ajw45]

Originally Posted by MrGoat

Nah, that’s exactly the issue.

When companies outsource to anyone (especially known creators of replicas) it throws them into the same pool as Swiss made watches from the manufacturer.

If the case is made in China (or anyone else beyond Rolex) and China (or anyone else beyond Rolex) also makes the replicas, how do you determine validity of a genuine watch or any of its parts now or in the future?

Doing such would just open the door and give replica makers the ability to perfect their craft even more than has already been shown today and be the demise of the Swiss watch industry.


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If any factory can make an exact replica such that no one can tell the difference but for way cheaper then it's a commodity product. I hate to break it to you, that's exactly what watch cases, bracelets, and hands are at mass production levels, commodiities. No special sauce. That's why the brands are outsourcing to these companies. Do you think people overseeing millions in manufacturing are a bunch of dummies that arent aware of the replica industry? They outsource to China amongst other countries for bracelets amongst other components exactly because they produce a quality / price product BETTER than Switzerland for commodity components that are not unique ip. Finally, who cares? The brands need to worry about replicas hurting their business and they still choose to outsource, what difference does it make to consumers?

Perfecting their craft? You mean efficiency and economy of scale? You think someone at omega is freaking out because their vendor might make the things they buy better and cheaper over time?

If I'm omega, I want a couple of bracelet suppliers, in different countries, so I can ensure the resiliency of my supply chain AND price competition for my components. These aren't proprietary algorithms, specialized skills, and unique machines and processes. We're not doing 3nm chip manufacturing, just making some screws.

It won't be the demise of the Swiss watch industry if they keep innovating and offering value. If they want to sit on their butts selling commodity products at a premium price because it says Swiss on the dial then yeah, someone will and should come and eat their lunch... err fondue.

[Easy E]

Originally Posted by ajw45

If any factory can make an exact replica such that no one can tell the difference but for way cheaper then it's a commodity product. I hate to break it to you, that's exactly what watch cases, bracelets, and hands are at mass production levels, commodiities. No special sauce. That's why the brands are outsourcing to these companies. Do you think people overseeing millions in manufacturing are a bunch of dummies? They outsourced to China amongst other countries for bracelets amongst other components exactly because they produce a quality / price product BETTER than Switzerland.

Perfecting their craft? You mean efficiency and economy of scale? You think someone at omega is freaking out because their vendor might make the things they buy better and cheaper over time?

If I'm omega, I want a couple of bracelet suppliers, in different countries, so I can ensure the resiliency of my supply chain AND price competition for my components. These aren't proprietary algorithms, specialized skills, and unique machines and processes. We're not doing 3nm chip manufacturing, just making some screws.

It won't be the demise of the Swiss watch industry if they keep innovating and offering value. If they want to sit on their butts selling commodity products at a premium price because it says Swiss on the dial then yeah, someone will and should come and eat their lunch... err fondue.

Cheaper, not necessarily better.

[Cru Jones]

“Cased & inspected in Switzerland” is definitely a lot less sexy of a marketing pitch than “Swiss made”. Takes up a lot more room on the dial, too.

Who cares who might be misled?

[Easy E]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

“Cased & inspected in Switzerland” is definitely a lot less sexy of a marketing pitch than “Swiss made”. Takes up a lot more room on the dial, too.

Who cares who might be misled?

"Swiss Cased"



MKII, of course

[ajw45]

Originally Posted by Easy E

Cheaper, not necessarily better.

Cheaper in absolute terms but better quality / $ in China. Obviously if they could produce the same quality / price ratio in Switzerland they would and avoid the risk, import costs, etc. If Omega as a customer asks for certain level of precision from supplier they will make it, it just costs more. If the factory can't meet the specs and quality level than it's Omega's job as a brand to find a factory that can. If something is crappy, it's because that's what Omega chose to buy and send through to their customers. Hate the brand not the supplier.

I used to work for one of the big luxury houses. Whatever the price was from a vendor, it was too much. Don't match my price? I'll take my business to another vendor along with 3 or 4 other brands in the group. They might lose money on a deal just to keep the business but that means they are going to make it as cheap as possible and find every shortcut they can to claw back margin. Luxury is mostly a price point and how much of that goes to marketing vs cogs, the drive towards constant cost "efficiencies" is no better than any other product. Could be a speedy, could be a blender.

[Paul C]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

“Cased & inspected in Switzerland” is definitely a lot less sexy of a marketing pitch than “Swiss made”. Takes up a lot more room on the dial, too.

Who cares who might be misled?

So it's marketing?

What about when you hand your watch in for repairs? Does it cost more or less depending on where they source the parts?

[Paul C]

We all know China makes things at a fraction of the cost it does elsewhere (in the West). Just look at DeepSeek and OpenAI ChatGPT.

[MrGoat]

Originally Posted by ajw45

If any factory can make an exact replica such that no one can tell the difference but for way cheaper then it's a commodity product. I hate to break it to you, that's exactly what watch cases, bracelets, and hands are at mass production levels, commodiities. No special sauce. That's why the brands are outsourcing to these companies. Do you think people overseeing millions in manufacturing are a bunch of dummies that arent aware of the replica industry? They outsource to China amongst other countries for bracelets amongst other components exactly because they produce a quality / price product BETTER than Switzerland for commodity components that are not unique ip. Finally, who cares? The brands need to worry about replicas hurting their business and they still choose to outsource, what difference does it make to consumers?

Perfecting their craft? You mean efficiency and economy of scale? You think someone at omega is freaking out because their vendor might make the things they buy better and cheaper over time?

If I'm omega, I want a couple of bracelet suppliers, in different countries, so I can ensure the resiliency of my supply chain AND price competition for my components. These aren't proprietary algorithms, specialized skills, and unique machines and processes. We're not doing 3nm chip manufacturing, just making some screws.

It won't be the demise of the Swiss watch industry if they keep innovating and offering value. If they want to sit on their butts selling commodity products at a premium price because it says Swiss on the dial then yeah, someone will and should come and eat their lunch... err fondue.

If the same manufacturer makes replica and genuine cases, how do you propose they are differentiated today or 50 yrs from now? They do not make “exact copies” now, that’s how we are able to feel them out from genuine references. No matter how great the replica makers are they cannot exactly replicate a Rolex case to the same standard, be it metallurgically or proportionately or polishing/ chamfering. They may hit one or two but not all three. Advocating for parts of your Swiss made (exclusive) watch to be outsourced is literally you and those like you advocating for the brands destruction.

In this day and age any high end watch manufacturer that outsources to china or the like would be the end of my appreciation and admiration for the brand. I am aware some bracelets were historically made in other places than Switzerland back in the day and I’m ok with that because the quality of the replicas were not what they are today.


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[ajw45]

Originally Posted by MrGoat

If the same manufacturer makes replica and genuine cases, how do you propose they are differentiated today or 50 yrs from now? They do not make “exact copies” now, that’s how we are able to feel them out from genuine references. No matter how great the replica makers are they cannot exactly replicate a Rolex case to the same standard, be it metallurgically or proportionately or polishing/ chamfering. They may hit one or two but not all three. Advocating for parts of your Swiss made (exclusive) watch to be outsourced is literally you and those like you advocating for the brands destruction.

In this day and age any high end watch manufacturer that outsources to china or the like would be the end of my appreciation and admiration for the brand. I am aware some bracelets were historically made in other places than Switzerland back in the day and I’m ok with that because the quality of the replicas were not what they are today.


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<sigh> It's not that they can't, it's that they can't for the price point buyers of replica's want to hit. It's not that my local corner pizza place can't put caviar on every pizza, it's that his customers aren't looking for $200/slice. No one wants to spend $3k on a replica, they want spend $300. The replica market is inherently super cheap/discount so it's really focused on what's the best fake you can make me for say $15-$50 USD that I can mark up to $100-$300 in some western country.

Whatever, you're mixing issues. If your issue is one of quality, I think that's proven false by the fact that Omega and the other brands have chosen to outsource to other vendors outside of CH. If those suppliers didn't meet Omega's quality standards that Omega wouldn't outsource to them.

If your issue is about supporting replica mnfrs, again, I think that's proven moot by the fact that those with the most to lose are the one's choosing to outsource to 3rd party vendors. Again, if that was a concern then Omega wouldn't do it.

It sounds like these issues are entirely your own personal concerns and that's totally fair, you should vote with your wallet and buy from other brands. BUT, I don't think it's fair to try and tie business decisions by the brand to the mnfring abilities of a whole country or create some shadow link to replicas and the end of the swiss watch industry when there's nothing to indicate that's the case.

[MrGoat]

Originally Posted by ajw45

&lt;sigh&gt; It's not they can't, it's that they can't for the price point buyers of replica's want to hit. It's not that my local corner pizza place can't put caviar on every pizza, it's that his customers aren't looking for $200/slice pizza. No one wants to spend $3k on a replica, they want spend $300. The replica market is inherently super cheap/discount so it's really what's the best fake you can make me for $15-$50 USD that I can mark up to $100-$300 in some western country.

Whatever, you're mixing issues. If your issue is one of quality, I think that's proven by the fact that Omega and the other brands have chosen to outsource to other vendors outside of CH. If they didn't meet Omega's quality standards that Omega wouldn't outsource to them. Duh.

If your issue is about supporting replica mnfrs, again, I think that's proven moot by the fact that those with the most to lose are the one's choosing to outsource to 3rd party vendors. Again, if that was a concern than Omega wouldn't do it.

It sounds like these issues are entirely your own personal concerns and that's totally fair, you should vote with your wallet and buy from other brands. BUT, I don't think it's fair to try and tie business decisions by the brand to issues of quality or some shadow link to replicas and the end of the swiss watch industry, there's nothing to indicate that's the case.

Do you really think a Rolex case costs that much more to build in something close to 904 as a replica? I bet it’s literally a dollar or two. If they’ve got the machines, they’ve got the dimensions and they’re producing genuine watches but potentially non genuine watches as well, unless they are the company that can actually be impacted by replicas being made, they’re going to also produce replica cases and any other component.
Go buy your subsequent Rolex or Omega’s on the sidewalk of Canal Street because you’ll get the equivalent of what you would at an AD if your reasoning takes hold.


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[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by ajw45

Cheaper in absolute terms but better quality / $ in China. Obviously if they could produce the same quality / price ratio in Switzerland they would and avoid the risk, import costs, etc. If Omega as a customer asks for certain level of precision from supplier they will make it, it just costs more. If the factory can't meet the specs and quality level than it's Omega's job as a brand to find a factory that can. If something is crappy, it's because that's what Omega chose to buy and send through to their customers. Hate the brand not the supplier.

I used to work for one of the big luxury houses. Whatever the price was from a vendor, it was too much. Don't match my price? I'll take my business to another vendor along with 3 or 4 other brands in the group. They might lose money on a deal just to keep the business but that means they are going to make it as cheap as possible and find every shortcut they can to claw back margin. Luxury is mostly a price point and how much of that goes to marketing vs cogs, the drive towards constant cost "efficiencies" is no better than any other product. Could be a speedy, could be a blender.

My consumer brands have manufacturing facilities in the US, Mexico, China and India.

In my experience you can get amazing quality in China - so completely aligned there. I don't personally have an issue with Chinese made product.

Like I said above though, I think it's problematic to mislead customers about where the product is made.

Especially in luxury.

Personally, I won't be buying any Omega products and this just gives me another reason to stick to transparent & honest independents.

[omar-rye]

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

My consumer brands have manufacturing facilities in the US, Mexico, China and India.

In my experience you can get amazing quality in China - so completely aligned there. I don't personally have an issue with Chinese made product.

Like I said above though, I think it's problematic to mislead customers about where the product is made.

Especially in luxury.

Personally, I won't be buying any Omega products and this just gives me another reason to stick to transparent & honest independents.

Just to be clear, none of the claims about Omega are confirmed. Even if they are true, how did Omega mislead?

[omar-rye]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

Here is an interesting thread from 2023 ("Are Omega Clasps Made in Thailand Now"), including pictures and changes in wording from Omega on manufacturing of watches:

https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/a...d-now.5493348/


Omega went from this:


To this:

Actually, they still have the wording “Every part of an OMEGA watch is made in Switzerland, which goes far beyond the industry’s required standard” on their site.

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by omar-rye

Actually, they still have the wording “Every part of an OMEGA watch is made in Switzerland, which goes far beyond the industry’s required standard” on their site.

Wow!! Well then, that settles that.

Looks like Omega joins an exclusive club of transparent watchmakers that put the Swiss into “Swiss made”! Thanks for the info! It was a bit tricky finding the text, as it seems only available on the check-out page of Omega sites having e-commerce (not all do).

So, besides Omega, we can look (at least) to Rolex, Patek and Moser. I’d be happy to hear about other transparent companies.

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by omar-rye

Just to be clear, none of the claims about Omega are confirmed. Even if they are true, how did Omega mislead?

Read the WUS thread above. It's confirmed some bracelets are made in Thailand.

[omar-rye]

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

Read the WUS thread above. It's confirmed some bracelets are made in Thailand.

It’s 4 pages long unfortunately. Are you able to pinpoint to where it was confirmed without a doubt that some Omega bracelets are made in Thailand