Cartridge vs. Bottle Ink

[Naples09]

Hi all!

I'm looking at entry level FP's and really do not understand the difference between a refill with a cartridge vs bottle ink.

Could someone please explain the difference and what is best for a new FP owner?

Thank you in advance!

Jim

[RebreatherDiver]

I am new to FP's as well but just got my first one a few months ago, Pelikan M805 (bottle, piston fill).

Some FP's are able to be filled with bottle ink and have an adapter for a cartridge.

Others are cartridge only and some are bottle only. (I know, no help so far)

It depends on the make and engineering of the pen.

The preference is personal, some seem to like cartridge's better if they are flying, as they can pop in a new one at the destination. Others like bottle ink better because the pens they like only use lever, plunger, or piston fill.

Others know more than I, but I don't think one is better than the other. Just another way to "skin a cat" (what a horrible expression)

[Naples09]

Thanks for the info. I'm still confused!

Is the bottle ink difficult to use in order fill the pen?

I'm looking at the Lamy pens because they are inexpensive and I'd like to see what nib best fits my needs before I drop $300+ on a nice pen.

Anyone have any comments on the Lamy Studio model? I've read that a lot of you recommend the Lamy Safari for a starter pen.

Would a medium NIB Lamy be a good starting point or should I start with a broad nib?

Thanks.

Jim

[Browining]

There are many more color choices and types with bottled ink. It is possible to re-use cartridges and fill them with a syringe with a bottle. It is not hard to fill a pen using bottle ink.

Browning

[Earl Camembert]

If you travail with your pen you need cartridges and carrying a bottle is a pain it the butt although they do make a small ink holder for those that use a pen that can't use a cartridge. Most pens can use a cartridge or an adapter so they can be filled from a bottle.

I would go with one of those; if money is no object look into a Waterman Edson. Just over $1,000.00 new. I got one of FleBay for a mere $700, it is worth it if you are a fountain pen aficionado.

[Shangas]

Put on a pot of coffee and drink it, folks. You may be here for a while...

I write the following as a veteran user of fountain pens for nearly 20 years...bottles are best. I don't say this purely because they look cool, there are actually several reasons why. Let me explain:

1. Bottles cost less in the long-run.

At first, this doesn't seem to make sense. You spend $15 for a bottle of ink, you spend $5 for a pack of cartridges. Cartridges are cheaper, thank you, end of story. Right?

Wrong. For $15 you get 50ml of ink. For $5 you get 5ml of ink (approximately). For just ten dollars more, you get ten times more ink. How long does this ink last? It depends, but a full bottle of ink should last at least two years, sometimes even more than that. It depends on usage.

2. A pen carries more ink if filled from a bottle.

If you fill a pen with ink from a cartridge, you have only the ink in the cartridge to write with. If you fill a pen with ink from a bottle, you have the ink in the reservoir, plus the ink already stored in the feed, due to the bottle-feeding. It's not much more, but a simple fountain pen with ink in its feed can write for almost a whole day without going dry.

3. As I think someone already mentioned, bottled inks come in more varities.

There's only so many things you can cram into tiny, plastic cartridges. Bottled inks allow for more exploration of inks. Different colours, scented inks, different drying times and writing characteristics, not all of which translate well to cartridge inks...for example, what's the point of having scented ink in a cartridge, if you can't open it and smell it?

Now Jim, to answer a few of your questions...

Which is better? Bottles or cartridges?

I generally say that bottles are better, for the reasons listed above. However, if you're a total n00b in the FP world, you may want to start with cartridges first, just for the convenience factor, before you move to more interesting and/or fancy fountain pens.

Your other question was: "Is the bottle ink difficult to use in order fill the pen?"

No it isn't. You open the bottle, you put the pen in, covering it up to the Section (the section is the part of the pen you grip with your fingers) and then you fill the pen. When the pen is full, you remove it from the bottle, you tap it lightly to knock off any excess ink, you swaddle the nib-area with a tissue to clean it. You reassemble the pen and cap the ink-bottle. Done.

Of course, if you're a complete klutz, you could knock over the ink-bottle, but I've never known this to happen. Most ink bottles have fat, hefty bases which make them rather impossible to tip over. Montblanc bottles are rather famous for this little 'safety feature'.

[RebreatherDiver]

Shangas, Thank you very much

[sunburst]

Shangs, thanks for the great info.
I've just started to experiment with bottled ink.

[Naples09]

Originally Posted by Shangas

Put on a pot of coffee and drink it, folks. You may be here for a while...

I write the following as a veteran user of fountain pens for nearly 20 years...bottles are best. I don't say this purely because they look cool, there are actually several reasons why. Let me explain:

1. Bottles cost less in the long-run.

At first, this doesn't seem to make sense. You spend $15 for a bottle of ink, you spend $5 for a pack of cartridges. Cartridges are cheaper, thank you, end of story. Right?

Wrong. For $15 you get 50ml of ink. For $5 you get 5ml of ink (approximately). For just ten dollars more, you get ten times more ink. How long does this ink last? It depends, but a full bottle of ink should last at least two years, sometimes even more than that. It depends on usage.

2. A pen carries more ink if filled from a bottle.

If you fill a pen with ink from a cartridge, you have only the ink in the cartridge to write with. If you fill a pen with ink from a bottle, you have the ink in the reservoir, plus the ink already stored in the feed, due to the bottle-feeding. It's not much more, but a simple fountain pen with ink in its feed can write for almost a whole day without going dry.

3. As I think someone already mentioned, bottled inks come in more varities.

There's only so many things you can cram into tiny, plastic cartridges. Bottled inks allow for more exploration of inks. Different colours, scented inks, different drying times and writing characteristics, not all of which translate well to cartridge inks...for example, what's the point of having scented ink in a cartridge, if you can't open it and smell it?

Now Jim, to answer a few of your questions...

Which is better? Bottles or cartridges?

I generally say that bottles are better, for the reasons listed above. However, if you're a total n00b in the FP world, you may want to start with cartridges first, just for the convenience factor, before you move to more interesting and/or fancy fountain pens.

Your other question was: "Is the bottle ink difficult to use in order fill the pen?"

No it isn't. You open the bottle, you put the pen in, covering it up to the Section (the section is the part of the pen you grip with your fingers) and then you fill the pen. When the pen is full, you remove it from the bottle, you tap it lightly to knock off any excess ink, you swaddle the nib-area with a tissue to clean it. You reassemble the pen and cap the ink-bottle. Done.

Of course, if you're a complete klutz, you could knock over the ink-bottle, but I've never known this to happen. Most ink bottles have fat, hefty bases which make them rather impossible to tip over. Montblanc bottles are rather famous for this little 'safety feature'.

WOW...that was a great post. Thank you very much. Sounds like in the long run bottle is better since it provides you with more options for less money.

I am a complete noob so I'll start with some cartridges. Once I have the hang of things, I'll start looking around and reading up on bottle ink.

I might order the Lamy Studio with Med nib from Pencity.com. They seem to have the best prices. I think the Lamy is a nice starter pen and most of you speak highly of the brand.


Thanks again to everyone who replied to this thread. The wealth of knowledge on this site is fantastic!

Jim

[sunburst]

Originally Posted by Naples09

I'm looking at the Lamy pens because they are inexpensive and I'd like to see what nib best fits my needs before I drop $300+ on a nice pen.

Anyone have any comments on the Lamy Studio model? I've read that a lot of you recommend the Lamy Safari for a starter pen.

Would a medium NIB Lamy be a good starting point or should I start with a broad nib?

Thanks.

Jim

Jim, I have both Lamy Safari and Lamy Studio in Palladium (EF)

I highly recommend Lamy Safari with 1.1 Italic nib (and coverter which is sold separately).
This set-up was also recommended to me by a fellow TRF member Shandy (Ian) and one of the
best FP advise that I have ever got.

Lamy Safari is nice looking durable pen that will make you appreciate the fountain pen and let
you experiment without breaking the bank.
The nib is only $11.00 a piece if you want to try a different size.

FYI : Quite a few TRF member uses Lamy Safari as their daily FP.

Lamy Studio is good choice too but you may want to try in person.

The grip section of some Studio model (Blue, Black and Purple) has chrome finish which has a
tendency to be little slippery.

Brushed Stainless finish is the the most affordable Studio model and their grip section has black
soft finish which has a rubber like feel for good grip.

Palladium finish is the top of the line and comes with 14K nib instead of stainless steel nib.
The Palladium finish has a nice warm matte finish with slight champagne hue - I think it’s
the most beautiful finish of all Studio models.
The grip section has the same palladium finish and feels more comfortable and less slippery
than chrome finish.

[Naples09]

Originally Posted by sunburst

Jim, I have both Lamy Safari and Lamy Studio in Palladium (EF)

I highly recommend Lamy Safari with 1.1 Italic nib (and coverter which is sold separately).
This set-up was also recommended to me by a fellow TRF member Shandy (Ian) and one of the
best FP advise that I have ever got.

Lamy Safari is nice looking durable pen that will make you appreciate the fountain pen and let
you experiment without breaking the bank.
The nib is only $11.00 a piece if you want to try a different size.

FYI : Quite a few TRF member uses Lamy Safari as their daily FP.

Lamy Studio is good choice too but you may want to try in person.

The grip section of some Studio model (Blue, Black and Purple) has chrome finish which has a
tendency to be little slippery.

Brushed Stainless finish is the the most affordable Studio model and their grip section has black
soft finish which has a rubber like feel for good grip.

Palladium finish is the top of the line and comes with 14K nib instead of stainless steel nib.
The Palladium finish has a nice warm matte finish with slight champagne hue - I think it’s
the most beautiful finish of all Studio models.
The grip section has the same palladium finish and feels more comfortable and less slippery
than chrome finish.

Hi Joji!

Thank you for the detailed information on the Lamy pens. I'll take a better look at the Safari. Based on the pics online it looked a bit thin for my tastes, which is why I was thinking about the Studio version. The studio looked thicker to me.

I'll keep looking and see what I come up with over the weekend. I plan to place an order Monday. Just need to pick a pen!

[sunburst]

Originally Posted by Naples09

Hi Joji!

Thank you for the detailed information on the Lamy pens. I'll take a better look at the Safari. Based on the pics online it looked a bit thin for my tastes, which is why I was thinking about the Studio version. The studio looked thicker to me.

I'll keep looking and see what I come up with over the weekend. I plan to place an order Monday. Just need to pick a pen!

I have never taken a measurement or compared side by side but Studio does feel thicker (and heavier).
Can't go wrong with either model.
Keep on looking as there are many excellent FPs and that's a part of fun.

If you want great price on Lamy try Oscar Braun

http://www.oscarbraunpens.com/

I just purchased my Lamy Studio from them.
They only accept check or money order but their price is fantastic
and Pam is great to deal with.

[2careless]

I'd say bottle is better as long as you know what you want.
It's no good to have a bottle of ink that later on you don't quite like the colour and you're stuck with it.
Also, filling ink from bottle can be tricky. The last 1/3 of the bottle is always a problem because invariably you can't get the section covered and you won't be able to get ink sucked into the pen.
Not to say that every time after ink feeding and you waste ink when you wipe clean the section.
And of course the possibility of spilling a blot

[Naples09]

Once again, thanks for the info. I'm learning a lot about fountain pens from reading the old posts.

Is there a website that shows the step by step process for filling the pen with bottle ink?

I'm still not sure I understand how you suck the ink into the converter through the nib.

I apologize...I know these are dumb questions for you FP users.

Jim

[sunburst]

Try here :

http://www.levenger.com/POPUPS/HowTo.asp?PageID=4919

[Naples09]

Thank you!

[Earl Camembert]

Originally Posted by Naples09

I'm still not sure I understand how you suck the ink into the converter through the nib.

Not all pens have a converter; there was a time when no pens had a converter. They all "suck" differently. To be a true purest only use a dip pen; if it was good enough for the founding fathers of the U S of A it is good enough for all.

[JimC]

Another "advantage" to a converter is in cleaning and flushing the pen. While you don't have to do it often, a good occasional cleaning (especially if you leave a pen inked and don't use it for a while) is in order.

A cartridge only pen can be taken apart and the nib soaked, etc. However, with a converter, you can actually flush a cleaning solution (I use diluted household ammonia) though the working parts of the pen. They come out good as new.

With a cartridge only pen (and I have a couple) you have to take a bit more care to keep them clean. More so if they are not used frequently...

[Naples09]

Thanks Jim! I ordered the Waterman Phileas starter kit today. Not a bad deal for $60 on amazon.com The kit comes with a pen, a few cartridges, converter and a bottle of ink. It should be here tomorrow.

Jim

[JimC]

Great! I think you will really enjoy the Phileas. Let us know your impressions.

[Shangas]

Jim makes a very good point which I neglected to mention.

A converter-fill pen allows you to fill and eject water from the pen, this helps to keep it clean and functional. This isn't something that you can do with a cartridge pen and you risk buildup of dry ink that clogs the pen over time and then it's a pain in the ass to clean...

[Earl Camembert]

Originally Posted by Shangas

Jim makes a very good point which I neglected to mention.

A converter-fill pen allows you to fill and eject water from the pen, this helps to keep it clean and functional. This isn't something that you can do with a cartridge pen and you risk buildup of dry ink that clogs the pen over time and then it's a pain in the ass to clean...

I take umbrage with that assertion. Why can not one put distilled water and ammonia in the converter and repeatedly fill and empty it? All cartage pens have a converter that can take the place of the cartage.

[Andad]

Originally Posted by Earl Camembert

I take umbrage with that assertion. Why can not one put distilled water and ammonia in the converter and repeatedly fill and empty it? All cartage pens have a converter that can take the place of the cartage.

You are correct Earl, some do suck differently.

[Shangas]

All cartage pens have a converter that can take the place of the cartage

And how many cartridge pens have you seen? Not all pens that take cartridges also take converters.

[JimC]

I'm sure many, if not most, do have a converter or option to add one. I have a couple of inexpensive pens that are cartridge only however. One, I nearly ruined because I left it filled, put it away, and then a few years later revisited the old pen. The ink was dried, but more so it really gummed up the feed. Took a lot of soaking to get it cleaned up...

[Earl Camembert]

Originally Posted by Shangas

And how many cartridge pens have you seen? Not all pens that take cartridges also take converters.

Who makes a cartridge that there is no converter for?

[Widows Son]

Originally Posted by Naples09

Thanks Jim! I ordered the Waterman Phileas starter kit today. Not a bad deal for $60 on amazon.com The kit comes with a pen, a few cartridges, converter and a bottle of ink. It should be here tomorrow.

Jim

Great pen, you'll love it.

[Shangas]

Originally Posted by Earl Camembert

Who makes a cartridge that there is no converter for?

That's not the point. What I'm saying is that some pens just do not take converters, only cartridges. Just because a pen can take cartridges does not mean it can also take converters. Just because a company makes cartridges AND converters does NOT mean that all their pens take cartridges AND converters. I can name the Sheaffer school pen and the Montblanc 144 'Mozart' as just two examples of that. I'm sure others could name plenty more.

[2careless]

Originally Posted by Shangas

I can name the Sheaffer school pen and the Montblanc 144 'Mozart' as just two examples of that. I'm sure others could name plenty more.

Concur. I have a Montblanc 100 year historical FP and it is a cartridge only pen. It just won't fit a convertor.

[Naples09]

Thanks for all the info everyone. I've been a little busy and have not got back to post my review of the Waterman Kit that I bought. I'll start a new thread.