Question to experts, how to determine genuine bracelet

[hpark21]

Just got a vintage 16014 from 1980.

Bracelet clasp and endlinks are genuine, but my watchmaker is questioning authenticity of the bracelet itself. He tells me that it is much stiffer than other bracelets that he dealt with (and he deals with a LOT of Rolex).

Authenticity of the watch and other parts are not at question.

Your expert help is greatly appreciated.

Here are the seller's pics:

[77T]

The reason he may be mentioning it to you is because there are so many replica versions of that bracelet and clasp - right down to the D year code. Can't really say more in this thread since we don't discuss those things here. Maybe you could post this in the Watch Out!!! thread to get more eyes and opinions on it...

Just an example pic to compare...

[joe100]

On every single non-genuine double-crown bracelet I've seen, the scrollwork is always wrong. Yours appears to be okay to me.

The DC bracelet is less common in the Rolex world but it is one of the most faked. I purchased a DC from a fellow who insisted it was fake and I knew full well it was real. Even his story lent to the fact it was genuine. In other words I got it for a song. The answer with these always lies in the scroll

[hpark21]

Clasp and endlinks are NOT at a question here though.

My watchmaker says that the clasp and endlinks as far as he can tell are real. Just the actual bracelet he is questioning the origin since he feels that it is feels "far stiffer" than the real ones that he has in his shop/went through his shop.

He feels that it may be franken bracelet with genuine endlinks and clasps.

So, question is, IF that is the case, is there a way to tell the real bracelet?

[Elmie]

those old jubilee bracelets often get stretched out over time. it could be that someone tightened the center links - if that's what you mean by "feels far stiffer." if that's the case, it can be a genuine bracelet, however, the value will be significantly less than if it had not been tightened.

if the clasp and endlinks are real, then the center links could have been replaced. you can usually tell by the shape of the links if they are real or not.

[springer]

The links are very nice for a 30-year-old bracelet. How is the wear on the top of the clasp? Is it consistent with the links - if it isn't, the link sections might be aftermarket Could be real...could be aftermarket!

Also, I have threaded several discussions here on the small crown clasps in the past. These Jubilee bracelets are genuine, but they were also counterfeited too. Besides the scrollwork being wrong, many appear to be laser etched instead of stamped.

[MP5]

IMO the aftermarkets never get the brushing on the back right and always have rounded edges on the small center links. Your seems just fine to me

[crowncollection]

Remove a screw and show a photo of the threads side on view ,check a few screws please as you can unluckily sometimes pull one added aftermarket link and the others are original on a used watch. If they are all the same you can just upload one photo . Then pull the band apart and please photograph a side on view of centre loop part of the band, macro on the surfaces as best you can.


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[hpark21]

Now this brings me to my next question. How to remove the screws. My watchmaker tried to remove the screw for 3 days using oil bath, solvent bath, ultrasonic cleaning, tapping, heating but he could not remove the screws.

What would be the next thing he can try?

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[crowncollection]

If I were in your situation I would cut a link away via the centre loops, you should then be able to get a good grip on the screw shaft with pliers and crank it ( much more force can be applied with direct heat if necessary) . Then if you find it is original add an original link to reattach it with a working screw you may also need the clasp final link attachment. If fake you can fix it with an aftermarket link or you may want to get an original anyway. It's best to do it anyway, as if ever needed you can add more links and have a means of adjusting via the links. You will sacrifice a link.


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[hpark21]

Originally Posted by crowncollection

If I were in your situation I would cut a link away via the centre loops, you should then be able to get a good grip on the screw shaft with pliers and crank it ( much more force can be applied with direct heat if necessary) . Then if you find it is original add an original link to reattach it with a working screw you may also need the clasp final link attachment. If fake you can fix it with an aftermarket link or you may want to get an original anyway. It's best to do it anyway, as if ever needed you can add more links and have a means of adjusting via the links. You will sacrifice a link.


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I would if only 1 screw was stuck. All 3 screws are stuck.

I will talk to another jeweler and see whether he can take the screw off. I don't know what the prior owner used. Possibly one of the jeweler used loctite or possibly super glue on the screws.

I will try the heat method OR if at all possible, I will talk to another jeweler whether he can drill out the screws.

[blaine mattison]

springer your a smart guy, and i think i've been down
this road before. i am not a fan of double crown clasp


as for the one posted in the thread. no

1. the hole in the cornet is never like a catfish's mouth
before it hits the corn on the hook

2. the seven count, there will be seven lines. they should
never end touching a another line at the end of the line
( pls. go look at your clasp)

3. line up, line down. the top of the scoll on the left side,
the line will be on top and the other side is the opposite.
( right side line down)

4. rolex is always centered in the scroll. ( come on, this is
modern day rolex stuff, 62510>> 5 digit STUFF)

5. rolex stamp will alway be consistent. all letters and symbols
will be stamped at the same consistency. ( even when rolex
makes a mistake, (modern era) it's still 99.95 to what was
intended)

didn't mean to start a fire. just expressing my personal findings

and if any one disagrees, o.k. i just suggest that the next 20,30
rolex's that they buy, take a picture of the clasp blades and compare
everyone. compare the dog-ears on the front side of clasp where you
open it. the crown on the clasp ( there are some incredible copies
out there, in that aspect) and finally the art work on the blades


springer, your still coming to the vegas show with me? ( ha ha )
we can debate all you want then! i'll bring 50 plus clasp and 30
plus bands

[Mickyfin]

The misalignment of the scroll areas highlighted by yellow arrows above indicates to me that this is not OEM. Rolex not centered.

Anyone else cross referenced theirs?

[hpark21]

So, are we saying that the whole bracelet is fake? Including clasp and possibly end link as well?

Wow. I did not suspect that at all...

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[hpark21]

BTW, does this mean, that THIS one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ROLEX-62510-...item3f2362258b

Is also fake?

I was looking for a genuine clasp to compare against the one that is pictured here and I found this one which looks almost IDENTICAL (including off centered "ROLEX") to the scrollwork as mine.

[springer]

Below is a genuine small crown clasp Jubilee. 100%! I threaded this quite a while ago. It was also examined by two techs by the RSC in Dallas (if that would mean anything to anyone) and they concurred that it was genuine.

[springer]

Here are some counterfeit Jubilees.

[springer]

Originally Posted by blaine mattison

springer your a smart guy, and i think i've been down
this road before. i am not a fan of double crown clasp


as for the one posted in the thread. no

1. the hole in the cornet is never like a catfish's mouth
before it hits the corn on the hook

2. the seven count, there will be seven lines. they should
never end touching a another line at the end of the line
( pls. go look at your clasp)

3. line up, line down. the top of the scoll on the left side,
the line will be on top and the other side is the opposite.
( right side line down)

4. rolex is always centered in the scroll. ( come on, this is
modern day rolex stuff, 62510>> 5 digit STUFF)

5. rolex stamp will alway be consistent. all letters and symbols
will be stamped at the same consistency. ( even when rolex
makes a mistake, (modern era) it's still 99.95 to what was
intended)

didn't mean to start a fire. just expressing my personal findings

and if any one disagrees, o.k. i just suggest that the next 20,30
rolex's that they buy, take a picture of the clasp blades and compare
everyone. compare the dog-ears on the front side of clasp where you
open it. the crown on the clasp ( there are some incredible copies
out there, in that aspect) and finally the art work on the blades


springer, your still coming to the vegas show with me? ( ha ha )
we can debate all you want then! i'll bring 50 plus clasp and 30
plus bands

Blaine, looks like the party is over now!!! Yes, I have to agree, the complete bracelet is counterfeit.

[hpark21]

Thanks guys for your help.

Seller and I am trying to work out the issue now.

In that regards, can you look at these pics to confirm that everything looks up and up? I mean, movement appear genuine and watch head looks genuine, but obviously I am not an expert. :(

[crowncollection]

Everything looks good on the new set of photos regarding the head. Lots of corrosion on that mid case though. I hope you got a good final price.


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[hpark21]

So, it looks like the head is good, just that bracelet is not genuine.

I will proceed accordingly.

Thanks.

[caryyee]

Originally Posted by hpark21

So, it looks like the head is good, just that bracelet is not genuine.

I will proceed accordingly.

Thanks.

That's awesome. Hopefully yourself and the seller can come to a mutually agreeable outcome