axle removal

[johnbicht]

I am about to change the axle of a 3035 weight. New jewel, NOS axle, and proper stake, and a lot of experience with similar stuff, BUT...

What is the favored way to remove the old axle? I have read one person turns the head off - I have the tools to do that - another presses the axle out.

[Rikki]

press out with staking punch one tap is usually all it takes. Rikki

[johnbicht]

Does the hole in the weight suffer any damage each time?

[johnbicht]

Thanks very much Rikki. I had hoped that you would respond to the main question. I will find out about the hole condition when I get to the job.

[Rikki]

Every time you take one out a very little bit of metal comes out, but your occillating weight will last for at least 35 plus years before needing to be replaced. The ladies not so much about 3 maybe 4 axles and they're done. It also depends if you catch it before the rivet gets loose this will wear the weight out prematurely. Rikki

[johnbicht]

Thanks even more Rikki. My weight is 30 years old already!! I don't remember any servicing that changed the weight, axle or jewel - back before I took over.

This is still that 3035 sub that won't keep wound even after redoing the epilame on the reversers and all that. If I wind it it works wonderfully, otherwise it drops amplitude every day.

A suggested the axle and top jewel are for the chop as soon as the axle arrives.

[Rikki]

Check the pivots on your drive wheel for ratchet as far as jewels go just check for end shake and make sure you peg the jewels after cleaning sometimes cleaning just doesn't get all the old oils off. when assembled oil pivots of reversers and drive wheel with hp 1000. If your drive wheel has too much side shake replace it a lot of energy is lost transmitting power to the ratchet. Rikki

[johnbicht]

I can see that side shake on that wheel would be quite bad. Hadn't thought about it. What about the jewels for it? Meaning, do the jewels wear equally as well as the pivots in this case?

I do always peg jewels. Even moderately young oil - say five years - is quite resistant to solvents even in ultrasonic cleaners.

I presume that HP 750 will be adequate?

[Rikki]

Jewels don't wear as fast and should be good with a new gear 750 is a bit light 1000 or 1300 would be better. Rik

[johnbicht]

Rikki, can the click spring drag things down a lot? I lost the original, made a new one from .005" wire, and then bought a generic, which had to be re-bent. Jeez! Anyway, I was then intent on making the spring very effective in the ratchet sense without noticing that it took energy to move.

[Rikki]

everything has to be in balance spring to strong it won't wind easily to weak the mainspring could slip try to source the correct part they really aren't that expensive. Rikki

[johnbicht]

Rikki,

Can't thank you enough especially, and others as well, who have given me advice on this issue which is spread over a couple threads.

In the most recent iteration I, replaced the rotor axle NOS, changed to a thinner gib clip, replaced the aftermarket click spring and went back to the one I had made to replace the lost original, changed to a slightly better used drive wheel for ratchet, and against all advice put a tiny lick of oil on the NOS mainspring coils. And changed to HP 1300 oil.

Staking the new axle with a good generic purpose made staking tool was a pain. It was undersize in my staking press, and a sloppy fit to the new Rolex axle. It staked 2/3 of the way around and then I had to shift stuff to get the rest. Oddly enough it looked pretty good when done!

The generic clips - -2 and -3 - were not in spec at all. They were .002 mm. different! Generic is really not the way to go at all.

The click spring I made was/is actually quite good. A very light action that both keeps the click in place and is minimum force to move.

I had been concerned that the mainspring was underlubed since it was far from current production. I put a drop of HP 1300 on the coils.

The action of the rotor was much better. Much. Used 1300 on all the pivots that I touched/cleaned.

I only wound it 8 turns, and then closed it up. It was running at 300 degrees in about 6 hours of wearing it, and has stayed between 290 and 305 for three days. It never would before.

[Rikki]

Congrats perseverance paid off. Rikki

[johnbicht]

Now five days later...instead of 290+ amplitude I am down to low 270s sometimes although also back up to high 280s at othertimes. My watch hand has been less active in the last few days. This gets me to wondering whether the auto wind is supposed to keep the mainspring wound to full power with an office workers level of activity or whether the power level goes up and down over time.

If the auto wind tries to keep 100% under office worker activity, then a really active person would have the bridal slipping almost all the time.

[Rikki]

up and down is the cycle of a mainspring it'll never be consistant day to day unless it's wound exactly the same each day which is impossible to regulate, so 270 and up is very exceptable as amplitude goes. Rikki

[LordNinja]

Another great thread! Hello John! I figured I'd visit you. Haha.

I was curious, I have HP 1300 and Synth* 9010 (Well 1300 is on the way, most expensive stuff I have bought yet!.. gearing up for a complete 3035 cleaning)and noticed you guys mentioning using 1300/1000 on the auto winding pivots/jewels. I believe the chart shows 9010, are there advantages to go with the 1300? I assume the higher viscosity is nice but wanted to make sure it was not a matter if 9010 being in shorter supply. Hell maybe HP 1300 did not exist yet..

I have not tried oiling a Rolex yet.. simpler things/basic jeweled movements to get a sense of how to hold the oiler.. how much is just enough and mitigating spread etc.. Not having an ultra sonic cleaner put me off of it for a while but I just bought that as well... It's going to be a wild weekend indeed..

[johnbicht]

Originally Posted by LordNinja

Another great thread! Hello John! I figured I'd visit you. Haha.

I was curious, I have HP 1300 and Synth* 9010 (Well 1300 is on the way, most expensive stuff I have bought yet!.. gearing up for a complete 3035 cleaning)and noticed you guys mentioning using 1300/1000 on the auto winding pivots/jewels. I believe the chart shows 9010, are there advantages to go with the 1300? I assume the higher viscosity is nice but wanted to make sure it was not a matter if 9010 being in shorter supply. Hell maybe HP 1300 did not exist yet..

I have not tried oiling a Rolex yet.. simpler things/basic jeweled movements to get a sense of how to hold the oiler.. how much is just enough and mitigating spread etc.. Not having an ultra sonic cleaner put me off of it for a while but I just bought that as well... It's going to be a wild weekend indeed..

Now, you know that Rikki is the pro. I can only throw up my surmise because I found his suggestion had merit within my other experiences. 9010 is for fine stuff. 9020 higher viscosity for slower higher pressure pivots. I liked the idea of HP1300 - considerable higher viscosity than 9020 - even more when I applied it. The deal with bearing of any size is to keep a film between the parts. High pressure on those tiny pivots requires tough oil films to keep them from touching down and increasing friction.

The part of oiling that I found extremely difficult was the proper oiling of the four cap jewels. It took four tries, cleaning them each time, to get what I thought was the correct oil amount. This was done the only way I find satisfactory, which is using a fine - very fine - pin-like thing to get the oil to pop through the hole jewel into the cavity between the hole jewel and the cap. The huge difficulty for me was being able to see the size of the oil "dot" while looking through the jewels. Had to rely on estimating the amount put in the cavity of the hole jewel before wicking it through. I couldn't see the witness through the jewels - and I use a high quality stereo zoom 10 - 30 power microscope for most of my fine looking.

Have a great time!

[LordNinja]

Take a look at this John, it is to the point and I thought a pretty good read: http://www.nawcc-index.net/Articles/...nd_Watches.pdf

[LordNinja]

Also, thanks for the advice, I was reading this PDF and just finished to receive it. They mention dealing with cap jewel oiling so I thought to link it.

I enjoyed the format of the document.

[johnbicht]

I didn't have the time to reference this document, but I wanted to, which I printed out a good while back for myself, but wished I could have taken the time. Good of you to find it. It is a pretty good take on the subject, but of course years out of date, which is humorous since the 3035 is 28 years out of date, and if it worked then...

Esslinger I think it is, sell a reasonably good thing for poking the oil through the hole jewel. I have broken several tips in just a few oiling jobs. They are supremely fragile.

If you were to get "Practical Benchwork for Horologists" by Louis and Samuel Levin, you would find the very definition of rigorous information. Particularly about jewels and oiling. Then look up who these guys were and be amazed. Buy an older version because the later ones the pictures are bad copies and less understandable. Mine is copyright 1944 and is beautiful.

[LordNinja]

I'll have to acquire that book. Thanks for the tip.I also want to get 'a watchmakers staking tool'. Can't find a good PDF. Hardcover it shall be.

I'm curious, when you say poking the jewel, do you mean an oiler? I have not attempted a complete cleaning and oiling outside of old pocket watches and cheaper movements.

I can only think of cap jewels, which are removed and oiled generally. Am I missing something dreadful that I'll discover shorty? Haha, always an adventure. I'm dreading unlocking that little cap cage... Or sending the cap jewel flying through the air.. I have some great tweezers due to some unfortunate experiences with cheaper ones..

I own a about 8 different oilers. Also confusing me is the oiling of gear teeth... Some say never and focus on jeweled pivot holes etc others say oblige... Hm.

Also wondering if fix-o-drop is worth dealing with.. I feel like I'd rather develop a steady oiling hand before I depend on that.. Perhaps just to stave odd the cliche oil on the hands mistake.. Wherein the oil climbs into the dial..

So much to learn. It's nice to talk to someone that's beyond where I am but not already a master watchmaker, as much as it is always great to talk to Rikki, it's neat to meet other adventurous people that are relatively new to it still. *salute*

[LordNinja]

Ah, I read up a little more. I see there is a method of oiling without removing the end/cap jewels /shock system jewels. I figure during cleaning these would be removed anyway and never considered oiling in this fashion. Interesting.

[johnbicht]

Originally Posted by LordNinja

I'll have to acquire that book. Thanks for the tip.I also want to get 'a watchmakers staking tool'. Can't find a good PDF. Hardcover it shall be.

I'm curious, when you say poking the jewel, do you mean an oiler? I have not attempted a complete cleaning and oiling outside of old pocket watches and cheaper movements.

I can only think of cap jewels, which are removed and oiled generally. Am I missing something dreadful that I'll discover shorty? Haha, always an adventure. I'm dreading unlocking that little cap cage... Or sending the cap jewel flying through the air.. I have some great tweezers due to some unfortunate experiences with cheaper ones..

I own a about 8 different oilers. Also confusing me is the oiling of gear teeth... Some say never and focus on jeweled pivot holes etc others say oblige... Hm.

Also wondering if fix-o-drop is worth dealing with.. I feel like I'd rather develop a steady oiling hand before I depend on that.. Perhaps just to stave odd the cliche oil on the hands mistake.. Wherein the oil climbs into the dial..

So much to learn. It's nice to talk to someone that's beyond where I am but not already a master watchmaker, as much as it is always great to talk to Rikki, it's neat to meet other adventurous people that are relatively new to it still. *salute*

Thanks.

Thoughts.

Tweezers...a friend turned me on to nickel silver tweezers, Dumont. Jules Borel has them. Being softer, the part being manipulated ever so slightly indents the surface of the tweezer and so is held more securely. I even bought a pair of Dumonts that have wood for the ends. Same reasoning. Work absolutely fabulous! Not for the tiniest of parts though. Then, also use a bit of sharpened pegwood in the other hand to hold, turn, push parts during manipulating with tweezers. The only safe way - in my opinion - of lifting the KIF springs. If they escape being held at the one end, these look like a dust mote on the table with bare eyes, and not easy to find with a visor either.

The oiler for getting the oil into the cap space is specific for the job. Don't oil the teeth. I never heard anyone even mention it. Careful of the oiling of the reversers, don't oil the pivots of the pallet also as I remember.

Fix-0-drop or similar is very necessary. I use an old bottle of Nyebar which we have had for 25 years for other jobs. Same basic material. I don't use the expensive bottle that is made for Fix-o-drop. Especially since some parts don't want to be completely covered - the pallet stones are to be treated but not the pivots.

Not joking about the microscope either. Worth every penny!

And what will you do with the mainspring?