Kosovar Independence

[CPTL]

Not sure what to think of this. It's not every day that a country declares independence. Still, my news channel continues to devote 23 1/2 hours per day to the "speeches vs. solutions" conundrum.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23203607

Western media likes to sensationalize things (what a profound statement). Apparently, Belgrade is exploding in protest with an entire 1,000 people. Excuse me if I feel underwhelmed.

I spent about 7 months in 2000 patrolling the Bosnian side of the Drina river, including the little towns of Bratunac and Srebrenica, with Serbia on the other side. (Understand: it's a different country, with different issues, but a common history.) The country is beautiful, and the people are "just like us." (Whatever that means.) I could never understand why they didn't like each other.

This isn't a political forum. However, we do have one Serbian member. Vukota: what's the scoop on the ground?

[frostie]

It's the first time in the history of mankind that a state (territory) declares independence without having a constitution. I am supporting the serbs but please don't get me wrong i am not a racist.

It's the first time that an ethnic group (Albanians) have two different states with two different goverments. I believe that it's going to become some sort of NATO state because of the Bondsteel base there which is one of the biggest bases that america has outside it's territory. Now that Kosovo is independent there is going to be huge redistribution of powers in the balkans. Hope that russians will clear things out somehow and support the balkan countries in a more active and direct way. Too bad that not many EU countries protested against the independence but that's politics. Anyway i hope that i don't offend anybody but that's how i see things and that's how many people here in the balkans understand things including greeks, bulgarians etc.

This is a very hot topic and some people might get offended so i think that it should be closed

[astcell]

When I was there in 1997-1998 the people fought over grudges held for 500 years. I am glad they are where they are now.

[BLSampson]

"It's the first time in the history of mankind that a state (territory) declares independence without having a constitution."

The US did in 1776 and didn't get a constitution until 1783.

[astcell]

Well we had the Articles of Confederation. We had something.

[Buddy Inspiration]

If the world recognizes Kosovo-Metohija as an independent nation it would set a dangerous precedent for other conflict areas in the world.

It would show the world that terrorism and attacks on a societey will pay off in the end as opposed to finding a political soultion.

The present Kosovo prime minister Hashim Thaci was the founder of KLA (Kosovo liberation army)

In 1998 they started their fight for independence from Serbia with killing policemen and postofficers, of course then President of Serbia "strongman" Slobodan Milosevic was fooled in the trap and overreacted by starting a massive offensive against the KLA in Kosovo (although it was nothing compared to the Turkish offensive against the Kurdish PPK movement in south east Turkey).

The Us and Nato responded with bombs when Serbia refused to sign the Rambouillet treaty which would have meant total capitulation for Serbia and willingly agree to give up 15% of their territory to a minority people. No other nation in modern time have been forced to give up their territory to a hostile minority.

The outcome of the NATO vs Serbia war ended with UN security counsil resolution 1244, which meant that Serbia would redraw their police and military forces from Kosovo and let the UN take over the administration and NATO the miltary control, however Kosovo was recognized as a part of Serbia.


If the UN and USA/EU don't handle this situation VERY careful it will lead to some major conflicts in the Balkans again.
IMHO this is the first step to a "Greater Albanian" state, just look at the albanian.com website and see how the albanians there think about the situation.

Next will be the break up of FYROM, which is "The former yugoslav republic of Macedonia" where about 40% of the population is Albanian, they will declare their independence from Macedonia and try to break away.
There are a also a large minority in Montenegro that would like independece from Montenegro and join with Albania.

Serbia have offered the Kosovo Albanians bigger autonomy than any other nation in the world but they turned every offer other than fully independence down.

How this will play out is not yet clear, but if Kosovo is recognized with independence why should Kurdistan/Nothern Ireland/Palestine/Tibet/Basque/Corsica/ be denied the same?

In my opinion all similar conflicts have to be resolved within the UN, the UN is far from perfect, but if some superpower recognize "independent" nations due to their own political agendas it will lead to severe instability in the world. Russia, China VS USA can lead to no stability if international law is not followed in some cases

[Topic]

I am also Serbian and its just crazy to me how they can take something thats ours for so many centuries. I don't see any reason for Albanians to have Kosovo other than illegal activity. And i agree that this will start other conflicts around the world but i don't think this is no where near an end...

[frostie]

Originally Posted by Buddy Inspiration

If the world recognizes Kosovo-Metohija as an independent nation it would set a dangerous precedent for other conflict areas in the world.

It would show the world that terrorism and attacks on a societey will pay off in the end as opposed to finding a political soultion.

The present Kosovo prime minister Hashim Thaci was the founder of KLA (Kosovo liberation army)

In 1998 they started their fight for independence from Serbia with killing policemen and postofficers, of course then President of Serbia "strongman" Slobodan Milosevic was fooled in the trap and overreacted by starting a massive offensive against the KLA in Kosovo (although it was nothing compared to the Turkish offensive against the Kurdish PPK movement in south east Turkey).

The Us and Nato responded with bombs when Serbia refused to sign the Rambouillet treaty which would have meant total capitulation for Serbia and willingly agree to give up 15% of their territory to a minority people. No other nation in modern time have been forced to give up their territory to a hostile minority.

The outcome of the NATO vs Serbia war ended with UN security counsil resolution 1244, which meant that Serbia would redraw their police and military forces from Kosovo and let the UN take over the administration and NATO the miltary control, however Kosovo was recognized as a part of Serbia.


If the UN and USA/EU don't handle this situation VERY careful it will lead to some major conflicts in the Balkans again.
IMHO this is the first step to a "Greater Albanian" state, just look at the albanian.com website and see how the albanians there think about the situation.

Next will be the break up of FYROM, which is "The former yugoslav republic of Macedonia" where about 40% of the population is Albanian, they will declare their independence from Macedonia and try to break away.
There are a also a large minority in Montenegro that would like independece from Montenegro and join with Albania.

Serbia have offered the Kosovo Albanians bigger autonomy than any other nation in the world but they turned every offer other than fully independence down.

How this will play out is not yet clear, but if Kosovo is recognized with independence why should Kurdistan/Nothern Ireland/Palestine/Tibet/Basque/Corsica/ be denied the same?

In my opinion all similar conflicts have to be resolved within the UN, the UN is far from perfect, but if some superpower recognize "independent" nations due to their own political agendas it will lead to severe instability in the world. Russia, China VS USA can lead to no stability if international law is not followed in some cases

Very well said

Originally Posted by Topic

I am also Serbian and its just crazy to me how they can take something thats ours for so many centuries. I don't see any reason for Albanians to have Kosovo other than illegal activity. And i agree that this will start other conflicts around the world but i don't think this is no where near an end...

I totally agree that this move is going to lead to more conflicts. And i am sure that cyprus is going to be again in trouble because of the independence trend and also a huge minority of Turks are going to be after their independence inside Bulgaria. What happened today in kosovo will be the beginning of new trouble in the Balkans

[Buddy Inspiration]

Originally Posted by frostie

Very well said



I totally agree that this move is going to lead to more conflicts. And i am sure that cyprus is going to be again in trouble because of the independence trend and also a huge minority of Turks are going to be after their independence inside Bulgaria. What happened today in kosovo will be the beginning of new trouble in the Balkans

The Cyprus case is quite amazing actually, here we have an independent and recognized EU nation that have half its territory occupied by Turkey, and the only reason that Turkish military have not yet been kicked out of Cyprus is that Turkey is a NATO member. This is also the reason that Turkey is not forced to give the Kurds independence.

However I belive that Kosovo is going to have the same quasi-independence that "Turkish republic of Northern Cyprus" have. Not being able to join international organisations and be a member of the UN, no EU membership and no Nato membership. They are going to be ruled from Brussels and Washington, the Albanian leaders in Kosovo will have to listen very careful to what THEIR leaders says and orders them to do...

[frostie]

Originally Posted by Buddy Inspiration

The Cyprus case is quite amazing actually, here we have an independent and recognized EU nation that have half its territory occupied by Turkey, and the only reason that Turkish military have not yet been kicked out of Cyprus is that Turkey is a NATO member. This is also the reason that Turkey is not forced to give the Kurds independence.

However I belive that Kosovo is going to have the same quasi-independence that "Turkish republic of Northern Cyprus" have. Not being able to join international organisations and be a member of the UN, no EU membership and no Nato membership. They are going to be ruled from Brussels and Washington, the Albanian leaders in Kosovo will have to listen very careful to what THEIR leaders says and orders them to do...

That's the real situation my friend with kosovo

From tomorrow kosovo is going to face huge economical problems cause 47% of the financial help that kosovo was receiving was from serbia. Also kosovo has 53% unemployment and 17% of the population live with less than 1 euro a day. The problems for them will start from tomorrow. They think that they are going to receive financial help but that's not true

[astcell]

Velitsko, that sounds like when the Philippines wanted the US Military out. We left. The next day they realized how much money we took with us.

[CPTL]

Interesting perspectives from folks living in the region.

International law has competing norms that impact this question. All people have a fundamental civil and political right to self-determination. However, international law favors the status quo as it applies to international borders.

The problem is, and this is a generalization applying to the FRY, ME, and a few other areas, unnatural state lines. Those lines were drawn by imperial governments years ago, sitting in seats of power far removed from the region and detached from the affected populations. The borders problem is aggravated by the presence of leaders hostile to a segment of their own population, resulting in migration across borders, homogenization within borders, etc.

I disagree that the UN is a competent or appropriate body to make borders decisions. The UN is captive to concentrations of self-interested power. It's incapable of enforcing its mandates. The UN is yet another seat of power far removed from the region it proposes to speak for, no more prescient to the needs of a particular region or constituency than its predecessors. If anything, the UN is yet another means for the "powerful" (as that term would have been defined in 1950) to inject their influence into areas where they wouldn't naturally be inclined to do so.

These academic points don't provide a practical question to address the problem. And, I disagree that any particular superpower's ratification of Kosovo's action will impact other states. The US will choose to ratify an individual state action based on US interests, not broad international law principle. Kosovo's declaration may be just, in US opinion, while an equally disenfranchised people's similar decision could be seen as an act against the sovereignty of the empowered state.

It's international politics. Theory and international law are tools of discussion that pundits use to explain actions after the fact. They have little use in predicting action, or deciding how to act, because we haven't devised a neutral and detatched arbiter of those laws and theories that is empowered to enforce its judgments.

The problem needs to be addressed by players in the region. Those players must decide what they want. They must decide to what extent they're willing to go to get it. They must come together in a decision making forum. And, they must have the character to stand by their decisions, and the clout to bind their constituency. Ultimately the more powerful will prevail. Friends and alliances are an element of that power. Just like domestic politics, not everyone will be happy. However, as long as people don't shoot at each other, then the process has worked.

[Buddy Inspiration]

Originally Posted by CPTL

Interesting perspectives from folks living in the region.

International law has competing norms that impact this question. All people have a fundamental civil and political right to self-determination. However, international law favors the status quo as it applies to international borders.

The problem is, and this is a generalization applying to the FRY, ME, and a few other areas, unnatural state lines. Those lines were drawn by imperial governments years ago, sitting in seats of power far removed from the region and detached from the affected populations. The borders problem is aggravated by the presence of leaders hostile to a segment of their own population, resulting in migration across borders, homogenization within borders, etc.

I disagree that the UN is a competent or appropriate body to make borders decisions. The UN is captive to concentrations of self-interested power. It's incapable of enforcing its mandates. The UN is yet another seat of power far removed from the region it proposes to speak for, no more prescient to the needs of a particular region or constituency than its predecessors. If anything, the UN is yet another means for the "powerful" (as that term would have been defined in 1950) to inject their influence into areas where they wouldn't naturally be inclined to do so.

These academic points don't provide a practical question to address the problem. And, I disagree that any particular superpower's ratification of Kosovo's action will impact other states. The US will choose to ratify an individual state action based on US interests, not broad international law principle. Kosovo's declaration may be just, in US opinion, while an equally disenfranchised people's similar decision could be seen as an act against the sovereignty of the empowered state.

It's international politics. Theory and international law are tools of discussion that pundits use to explain actions after the fact. They have little use in predicting action, or deciding how to act, because we haven't devised a neutral and detatched arbiter of those laws and theories that is empowered to enforce its judgments.

The problem needs to be addressed by players in the region. Those players must decide what they want. They must decide to what extent they're willing to go to get it. They must come together in a decision making forum. And, they must have the character to stand by their decisions, and the clout to bind their constituency. Ultimately the more powerful will prevail. Friends and alliances are an element of that power. Just like domestic politics, not everyone will be happy. However, as long as people don't shoot at each other, then the process has worked.

A short answer to an interesting and good post.

You are right that the problem should be solved by the players in the region however I am sure that Kosovos final status will be decided by, Washington, Brussels and Moscow.

The players in Belgrade or Pristina actually have very little to say about what is decided. Hopefully both parts realise and can agree on one thing, that everyone would lose if they resort to violence.

[frostie]

Originally Posted by astcell

Velitsko, that sounds like when the Philippines wanted the US Military out. We left. The next day they realized how much money we took with us.

Well there is a huge difference here. Serbs were forced to leave from something that belongs to them which is really unfair to me whereas in the Philippines US military had to leave cause they don't have any business there

Sorry if i am a bit direct but that's the truth my friend

[frostie]

One thing is certain. It's a tragedy that Serbs lost kosovo and a tragedy for the serbian history. Let's be straight though international laws are good in theory but we all know that they are never applied. Power and money always determine what the future will be and i think that Kosovo will be a puppet regime and behind this puppet regime we can clearly see NATO's military interests on this region. It's not a coincedence that the biggest base is situated there and it's not a coincedence too that the Trans Balkan oil pipeline crosses the balkans from there. This is an illegal and unfair act and i hope that a solution can be found allthough i doubt it.

The only thing for sure is that there is going to be huge redistribtuion of power and trouble is starting to appear in other minorities inside other countries. This was a wrong move and again we are going to have trouble in the Balkans.