Please Help to Identify this Dial...

[Orchi]

Err buddies...Orchi needs help from the Omega fans in here...to identify this original Dial...

Please advise...to which Omega watch model does this original Dial belong to...?

Appreciates the help very much...TQ

[DoxaDavid]

Err friend Orchi,

Where have you been lately? Your friends on the Rolex forum have missed you and have inquired as to your well being. You should post over there and say HI!

Sorry, can't help with your OP.

[el-piloto]

Originally Posted by Orchi

Err buddies...Orchi needs help from the Omega fans in here...to identify this original Dial...

Please advise...to which Omega watch model does this original Dial belong to...?

Appreciates the help very much...TQ

Hi there,

just a (first) quick & dirty reply here, as I need to go pretty soon...
Nice dial you have there!

Well, it belongs to the series of "W.W.W." (Water-proof Wristwatch) that
Omega (amongst many other companies) built for the Royal Airforce (RAF).
They mostly came with the cal. 30T2 SC or one of its derivatives (cal. 280 -
286)(the 286 was the 6th & final original 30mm SC variant - a T6).
A later batch (~1964) for the RAF reportedly featured the 27,9 mm movement
cal. 600 that was a bit flatter.

I don't have the case ref numbers handy right now, but if your dial fits
the 30mm calibre mentioned above, then a ref# like CK 2290 or a 2777 SC
might be correct (if I'm not mistaken with the 7s here).

But please don't quote me on the case-ref#s yet!

I'll try to pull out some more info by tomorrow, and I'll update it here if
needed...

B/R

Petros

[sherwin]

i believe that 个（similar looking) is a military signature

[Orchi]

Originally Posted by el-piloto

Hi there,

just a (first) quick & dirty reply here, as I need to go pretty soon...
Nice dial you have there!

Well, it belongs to the series of "W.W.W." (Water-proof Wristwatch) that
Omega (amongst many other companies) built for the Royal Airforce (RAF).
They mostly came with the cal. 30T2 SC or one of its derivatives (cal. 280 -
286)(the 286 was the 6th & final original 30mm SC variant - a T6).
A later batch (~1964) for the RAF reportedly featured the 27,9 mm movement
cal. 600 that was a bit flatter.

I don't have the case ref numbers handy right now, but if your dial fits
the 30mm calibre mentioned above, then a ref# like CK 2290 or a 2777 SC
might be correct (if I'm not mistaken with the 7s here).

But please don't quote me on the case-ref#s yet!

I'll try to pull out some more info by tomorrow, and I'll update it here if
needed...

B/R

Petros

Whoa! Buddy Petros...you are a walking Omega Vintage encyclopedia... Thanks so much for the valuable infos...

Err...Orchi shall look forward to hearing from you soonest...regarding on which case ref would the Dial belong to.

Oh btw...would appreciate if you could let Orchi know regarding the period of issue by Omega as well for this kind of military watches...

n from a scale of 1(common) to 10(RAREST)...how would you rate this Dial to be...

Please advise

[el-piloto]

Hi Orchi & thank you for your kind words!

Well... let's see if I can get everything together now... ;-)

First of all, yes that arrow-symbol on the dial is called a "broad arrow"
and is indeed a military marking for issued watches of the British MoD
(Ministry of Defense) for the RAF (Royal Airforce).

Many companies (IWC, Lemania and many others) have produced watches
specially commissioned for the British MoD and for many (if not all)
Commonwealth Countries. These watches have also been re-distributed to
the armed forces of many of the allied countries (during and after WWII).

Since good examples are hard to find, these are some of the most commonly
"faked" watches in the vintage line...

OK, now back to Omega and your dial...

From 1940-1942 onwards Omega created watches specially commissioned by
the British MoD. Omega delivered the highest number of commissioned watches
to the MoD than any other company.

One of the first batches was a production of ca. 25,000 units, that
featured a black dial with the "Broad Arrow". These watches where fitted
with the legendary 30T2 movement.
According to Omega Vintage Information, it was the "30T2 RS" calibre,
a 15 jwls movt with small seconds indication at 6.
The case-ref# for that particular watch was: CK 2444.

And now to your dial!

Again according to information from Omega's vintage dept, the watch in
question should indeed be this:

Case Ref#: CK 2777
(may also be referenced as CK 2777-1 SC inside the case back)

The watch featured the 30mm derivative cal. 283, a 17 jwls movt.

According to Omega, this batch was produced (or delivered) in 1952.

The dial featured (and thus "your" dial ) can be summarized thus:

Rather "thick" with 1 mm, made of soft iron it was oxidized in black matte
finish and had luminous (Radium) "stick" hands, painted white hour numbers
with luminous radium dots. The "broad arrow" symbol was printed in white.

The caseback was of a screw-in type and made of Stainless Steel.
The case was (contrary to the watches produced during WWII) made of
Stainless Steel ("staybrite").

Here's a direct quotation out of Omega's Vintage Information for this very
model:

"Special edition for the pilots of the R.A.F. (5900 units only)
Case : round (37 mm diameter), “staybrite” stainless steel, with inside
“Numetal” soft iron shell (special protection against magnetic fields up to 900
oersted instead of 60 for a standard antimagnetic watch !).
The outside case back engravings don’t refer to the watch itself but have to
be strictly considered as military engravings.
This watch style has never been commercialized and was strictly reserved
for the pilots of the British R.A.F."

---

Omega produced more specialized/commissioned/issued watches. Most went
to the British Forces (being - as I pointed out above - also distributed to
other Allied Forces of the time), but there also was a batch of some 10,000
watches delivered to the US Army around 1941. These featured white dials
with luminous 12-hour Arabic "numeric" markers and smaller 24 hrs (military)
markings above them. These watches had the case-ref# CK 2179 and
are also very interesting...

--------

As for rating the dial on a "rarity-scale" ... well... I'm not an expert in
these matters, but I'd say your dial looks to be in wonderful condition! It'd be
a dream to have for a restoration-project!!!!

Maybe another user here can correct me, but I'd say in the condition it is in,
and based on your scale, it'd be anything from 8 to 10!!!

If a had a restoration project going, I'd be begging you for it!!!!

---------------------

I hope all the above makes somewhat sense... & I hope it gives you a bit of
a basic informational overview...!

All the best

Petros

P.S. Oh, I forgot to add that these watches all feature some interesting inscriptions
engraved on the outside of their case-backs. The British units all have the letters
"W.W.W." (that stands for "Water-proof Wristwatch"), the Broad-Arrow symbol and
at least one line of issue numbers...
These engravings tend to be "a science for themselves" and they have been the stuff
of endless discussions in many occasions on many forums between collectors.
These engravings also tend to be "faked" or falsified a lot, in order to produce faked or
"frankenwatched" examples of these timepieces...
Omega themselves state in their Vintage Information dept, that these markings have
been applied by the respective military organizations (for example the MoD or the RAF) and
that Omega themselves had nothing to do with them...

We'd bee in it up to our necks, if we tried to elaborate in detail about what and how
the correct case-back military issue-engravings look like...

[Tools]

great info on a rare dial.....

[Orchi]

Originally Posted by el-piloto

Maybe another user here can correct me, but I'd say in the condition it is in,
and based on your scale, it'd be anything from 8 to 10!!!

Err buddy Petros...you are indeed a net surfing...Omega Encyclopedia...!

TQ very much buddy...n Orchi shall remember you...

[el-piloto]

Originally Posted by Orchi

Err buddy Petros...you are indeed a net surfing...Omega Encyclopedia...!

TQ very much buddy...n Orchi shall remember you...

Thank you your kind words...
Glad the info was useful... That's what forums are for, right?

& all the best

Petros

[Orchi]

Originally Posted by el-piloto

Thank you your kind words...
Glad the info was useful... That's what forums are for, right?

& all the best

Petros

Err buddy Petros...to repay your willingness to share vital information with Orchi...in return Orchi shall share the following pictures(sorry for bad light) of another Omega Military watch that Orchi needs more infos for...

Would appreciate your help in advising Orchi on its authenticity...age...rarity... saleability... n perhaps its potential market value...

Movement: Omega 283 Manual winding.
Backcase: CK 2777-1
Case width: ~ 37mm
Lug to lug: ~ 48mm
Thickness: ~ 14mm

The watch is running quite well.

n btw...it looks like something maybe missing inside between the case n movement.

[el-piloto]

Originally Posted by Orchi

Err buddy Petros...to repay your willingness to share vital information with Orchi...in return Orchi shall share the following pictures(sorry for bad light) of another Omega Military watch that Orchi needs more infos for...

Would appreciate your help in advising Orchi on its authenticity...age...rarity... saleability... n perhaps its potential market value...

Movement: Omega 283 Manual winding.
Backcase: CK 2777-1
Case width: ~ 37mm
Lug to lug: ~ 48mm
Thickness: ~ 14mm

The watch is running quite well.

n btw...it looks like something maybe missing inside between the case n movement.

Hi Orchi!

Don't tease me... please don't...

It is late, and I need to go to bed... and I can't afford to dream of your
W.W.W. Omega...

Very very nice watch you have there!

I think she's authentic!

She's missing her "dust cover" that fits between the case-back and the
movement, as well as the "spacer" (or movement holder ring), but other
than that she's a keeper!

The markings on the back look accurate and correct (as far as I know
at least), and your movt number starts with a 14 I think... thus is fits
in the correct time period for the watch! Looks good Orchi!

I think she looks authentic! As for her age... if she is what she appears to
be, then she should be from around 1952 or 1953...
The movt# starting with 14 would date her a bit later (say around 1954 or
1955)...

She must have seen a lot of action (and felt a lot of sweat), as her lugs
are very "tired" and need some help... but everything's fixable, I think! Even
the dial looks nice...

The crown has the right size but may be a replacement, but as long as
it fits and is the right size... no problem!

BTW, maybe the hands have been re-lumed at some point?

I'll dig in the books tomorrow and let you know a bit more about it... and
with a "fresh" mind (I neeeeeeed some sleep now) we'll put a tag on her!

All in all... great historic watch!

How am I supposed to sleep now????? LOL

We'll talk possible values tomorrow (well by now actually just "later") from
the office... ok?

Thanks for sharing the pics... great watch you have there!

All the best

Petros

[Orchi]

Err buddy Petros...please pardon Orchi for the teaser...it was unintentional...

n thank you very much for your added infos also on this watch...Orchi would treasure them very much also.

As far as Orchi can tell...the Case...Dial n Hands have not been further worked...by anyone before. What seems to be missing from the watch between the backcase n the movement...should be the anti-magnetic cover?

n there's no tell tale signs of which nation's military regiment or army that the watch was issued to...at this point.

You are right about the watch having been thru plenty of heavy artillery shelling in the "battle" grounds...or perhaps "dog fights" in midair...

Err...apart from the end of WW2...the only other war being fought at the time...was probably between the communist North Koreans n liberalized South Koreans...during the Korean war...where the Americans had suffered grave casualties also...but Orchi isn't sure whether any British army was ever dispatched to fight that war as well...

Hmmm...very interesting history perhaps on this watch...should it have been involved in any of the battle grounds there.

Also buddy Petros...how much would you think this sort of a watch would fetch in the resale market...as Orchi had earlier failed to locate any references of it...in any auction data or books ever published before.

Perhaps you can be of some great assistance on the above matter as well...TQ.

Oh btw...do you remember having seen the once popular TV series M*A*S*H...before? Those guys in the TV drama about the medical units in South Korea...are real funny lot to say the least.

[el-piloto]

Hi there & good morning (it is morning here in Greece at least)!

Originally Posted by Orchi

Err buddy Petros...please pardon Orchi for the teaser...it was unintentional...

No probs about the teaser... Gave me many interesting thoughts!

Originally Posted by Orchi

As far as Orchi can tell...the Case...Dial n Hands have not been further worked...by anyone before. What seems to be missing from the watch between the backcase n the movement...should be the anti-magnetic cover?

Yep, looks "untouched" indeed... I thought the hands might have been
re-lumed, but it may just look like it on the pics. Everything looks perfectly
original!

And yes, it does indeed miss 2 things that go between the movement and
the case-back. What I called a dust-cover is indeed the anti-magnetic
cover, a "calotte" as it is called.
It also is missing the casing-ring. Sometimes referred to as a movement-
holder, it is a small metal ring that fits just between the movement and the
case, and holds the movement in place if (for whatever reason) screws
cannot be used.

The CK 2777 you have was produced as a true anti-magnetic watch. The
above mentioned "calotte" (the one that's missing) formed part of the shield
against magnetism. It did so together with the rather special dial. You see,
that dial (both the spare one you have & the one on the watch) are slightly
thicker than the usual dials. According to Omega, the average dial of the
time was about 0.4mm thick, but the dial of the CK 2777 is a while 1mm tick!
It is also made of a special alloy (nickel & iron). Both the "calotte" and the
dial form a shield that protects the movement against magnetic fields.
According to Omega it was capable to withstand fields of up to 900 Oersted
(compared to the mere 60 Oersted of a simple antimagnetic watch of the
time)!

Originally Posted by Orchi

n there's no tell tale signs of which nation's military regiment or army that the watch was issued to...at this point.

Help's on the way here...!
You have your signs right there on the case-back!
The "Broad Arrow" identifies it as a watch produced for British Forces. That's
your number one!

Then you have the engraved numbers/serials...
I've looked the watch up at Marco Richon's marvelous book "Omegamania"
(no NOT about the auction of the same name).
Now, according to the information provided in said book, the number "6645" is
the NATO code of the UK.

Now in your case the engravings are "plain", that is there have not been any
further additions. If the watch had made its way to any other Forces of the
Commonwealth or any other Allied Forces of the time, the new owners would
have "serialized" the watch using their own numbers/serials
as additions to the ones the British engraved.

Here's a pic of the case-back of a Royal Airforce watch that was then passed
on to the Royal New Zealand Airforce (RNZAF). Look at how the RNZAF
serials have been engraved as "extra engravings" between the original
British ones:


So as your watch has a case-back with just "plain" British MoD serials, I think
it is safe to say that your CK 2777 has served with the Royal Airforce all its
active life!

Originally Posted by Orchi

Err...apart from the end of WW2...the only other war being fought at the time...was probably between the communist North Koreans n liberalized South Koreans...during the Korean war...where the Americans had suffered grave casualties also...but Orchi isn't sure whether any British army was ever dispatched to fight that war as well...

Well the Korean war is interesting from today's point of view as
(if I remember correctly) it was the first "conflict" (nice word for "war",
huh?) that was fought because the UN had issued the call!
Anyway, yes the United Kingdom also responded to the UN call and the were
very much involved in the Korean War.
(Appart from the United States and the United Kingdom, the other countries
that responded to the UN call and sent combat units were:
Australia, Belgium & Luxembourg, Canada, Colombia, Ethiopia, France, Greece,
Netherlands, New Zealand, Philippines, South Africa, Thailand and Turkey.
Medical units were furnished by Denmark, India, Italy, Norway, and Sweden.)

So time-wise... yep, the watch may well have seen some Korean "action"!

Originally Posted by Orchi

Also buddy Petros...how much would you think this sort of a watch would fetch in the resale market...as Orchi had earlier failed to locate any references of it...in any auction data or books ever published before.

That's a tough one Orchi! It depends a bit on what auctions one would take
as a reference for "pricing" the watch. You know (and I'll probably would get
banned in other forums for saying that), the market has been forever
"damaged" by last year's "Omegamania" auction by Antiquorum. Not that I'm
unhappy that Omega finally got the attention it deserves... but some of the
auctions were reeeeeeally "inflated". There was no CK 2777 at Omegamania
last year, but comparable models went for anything between 2K and 3.5K!
I'm sorry to say, but these prices were absolutely ex-orbitant and sometimes
ridiculous!

There is an Italian seller over at the Bay that has a very nice looking one
like yours up for auction. He wants 1,700 Euros for it (roughly $ 2,600). I'd
guess that for a watch in good overall condition, a price tag of anything
between 1,5K to 2,5K might be what you're looking at.

I must admit that I personally think, these prices are a bit too high for me.
We're unfortunately still in the wakes caused by the Omegamania auction. Try
for example to find a nice Flighmaster these days... they could be had from
$ 1K a few years back... and now everybody's trying to sell them for
nightmarish prices, just because one was sold for some $ 13K at Omegamania!
Hm... what can I say?

So Orchi... back to your watch now. As it is, I'd say you could "Bay-it" for
$ 1,5K or so. After a little work on it, it will bring more.

But then again - personal thoughts again here - I'm not sure how
"representative" the pricing situation is, if one orientates on what these
sellers are "trying" to get. One would have to look at how quickly (or not)
these watches are sold and if they meet the reserve prices and so on...
Mostly they are sold "under the table" (and bypassing the Bay) for less, by
making/accepting a good offer...

So Orchi, I'm really not sure about the price-tag here. It is a great, historical
and rare watch you have there, that's for sure.

To be honest with you, if it was mine, I'd keep it!!
(And I sure wish I had one...)

But say... do you accept PMs???

Well Orchi... that is basically all I can tell you about your CK 2777! It is a
great watch! That says it all!!!

And just for the fun of it... here's an advertisement that talks a little about
the watches that Switzerland supplied to the United Kingdom during WWII and
the numbers that Omega delivered back then.
Said period is a very interesting chapter in Omega's history!

Originally Posted by Orchi

Oh btw...do you remember having seen the once popular TV series M*A*S*H...before? Those guys in the TV drama about the medical units in South Korea...are real funny lot to say the least.

Yep! indeed! I love the 1970 movie by Robert Altman as well!

That's all for now Orchi! I hope I did not bother you with my long talks here!!!

Need to get back to work now... (so I can buy some watches, huh?!? )

All the best from Greece

Petros

[Orchi]

Err buddy Petros...those are the most valuable pieces of infos...money can't buy.

Really appreciates...the detailed infos on the watch...

Upon closer look...the movement nos. begin with prefix serial 130+.

There is nothing on the movement which would suggest that it is not securely fastened to the case...with the exception of the anti-magnetic cover that would be fitted around the inner case of the movement...

In between the inner n outer case...Orchi could clearly see another "O" ring or gasket which should be meant to prevent water from infiltrating into the inner case where the movement sits securely in place.

A very clever design by Omega if Orchi might add...considering that the watch was primarily produced in the pre-WW2 n post WW2 era...to say the least.

Thanks again for the indepth knowledge of the watch...that Orchi would not dream of obtaining from anywhere else...but from you.

[el-piloto]

It's Petros once more (reeeeally quick now)!

Thank you again for your kind words!
Glad we uncovered the secrets of your watch & your extra dial!

Originally Posted by Orchi

Upon closer look...the movement nos. begin with prefix serial 130+.

That's PERFECT Orchi! I couldn't make it out on your pics, so I misread it as a
14... But the fact that your movement number starts with a 13 helps
to even better "authenticate" your watch!!! This puts it in the absolute
correct time period (for the CK 2777 series) of 1952.
(As according to Omega, this batch was produced and/or delivered in 1952)
And most other CK 2777s I've seen all have serial#s staring with 13!
Just perfect!!!

Originally Posted by Orchi

A very clever design by Omega if Orchi might add...considering that the watch was primarily produced in the pre-WW2 n post WW2 era...to say the least.

Yep, you're right. It was a very clever design. And though your watch is a
post-WW2 one, Omega used this system for most of its Waterproof
Wristwatches produced during WW2. They had to meet certain standards
dictated for example by the MoD and all the watches produced for and
delivered to the British MoD during WW2 had the "W.W.W." inscription on
the back (plus the extra serial numbers of the Mod, Admirality or the RAF).
(W.W.W.: Waterproof Wristwatch)

Well... but now that's really all!!!

Enjoy your watch & thank you once more for your kind words!

Petros