Patek at Auction Results: What's ahead?

[thomaspp]

A quick note/thread to discuss some of today's Christie's auction results. I bid on a particular reference today (did not win, but came damned close).

Some references seemed to do OK, while others really surprised me on their low price. Yes, it's no secret that Patek sales are slow and auction prices are soft, but some of these results are quite interesting (in particular on the more complicated references) and make me wonder if we will continue to see a downward trend for some iconic and historically "auction favorites."

Let me know what you think. Thanks.


The figures below are the all-in price paid by buyers (including premiums).

Bad results that caught my eye:

5131J - $100k

5170G (Tiffany Dial - the watch that was of most interest to me) - $60k

5970P - $168k!

Sealed 5970G - $125k

5102 Celestial - $143k

5004G - $156k

Ladies 24 - $6k


Decent results that caught my eye:

5270 first generation - $112k

5205G black dial - $40k

5070R - $62k

5396G - $118k

5711 White Dial Tiffany Stamp - $47k



I won't even comment on the lots that did not sell....

[jon_jon]

I think most of the prices are in line with other recent auction results and the secondary market prices.

I thought the 5196P with a Tiffany stamp for $43K was a bit high considering you can probably walk into a Tiffany store and order a brand new one for much less.

Like you mentioned, the price of the two 5711/1A watches (1 blue dial and 1 white dial) with the Tiffany stamp seems like an anomaly at $47K.

[Hairdude1]

seems par

[thomaspp]

Originally Posted by jon_jon

I think most of the prices are in line with other recent auction results and the secondary market prices.

I thought the 5196P with a Tiffany stamp for $43K was a bit high considering you can probably walk into a Tiffany store and order a brand new one for much less.

Like you mentioned, the price of the two 5711/1A watches (1 blue dial and 1 white dial) with the Tiffany stamp seems like an anomaly at $47K.

I suppose Jon. Maybe I'm just spited I couldn't buy the 5170G Tiffany today. Lol.

Maybe I haven't followed prices that much recently, but 5131 and 5970P seemed low to me. When I was looking at 5970P 180-185 seemed fair.

Originally Posted by Hairdude1

seems par

Cheers buddy. The 5070R going strong.

[conkers]

It is definitely a buyer's market. 1518 at 175 seems v cheap.

[Jay (Eire)]

The 5711 results are just silly really given that they are current production and in reality not impossible to get ones hands on. It would be hard to believe that the buyer(s) are doing anything other than paying up to get what they want now. No way was this in any way a 'value' or 'collector' purchase with future value in mind.

The 5205g wasn't as soft as I'd thought it might be, although we're only talking a few k on that.

Curious as to what your thoughts were on the Tiffany premium for the 5070? I thought it might have been a little lower in the end given the secondary market levels for the 5170.

[Jay (Eire)]

The 5711 results are just silly really given that they are current production and in reality not impossible to get ones hands on. It would be hard to believe that the buyer(s) are doing anything other than paying up to get what they want now. No way was this in any way a 'value' or 'collector' purchase with future value in mind.

The 5205g wasn't as soft as I'd thought it might be, although we're only talking a few k on that.

Curious as to what your thoughts were on the Tiffany premium for the 5070? I thought it might have been a little lower in the end given the secondary market levels for the 5170.

[KarlS]

Actually I had the reverse view and thought the results were strong and was bidding on some of the same lots.....many appeared at mid estimate...
a) 5170 we have actually seen going at $ 48k incl commission so I giuess the Tiffany dial pushed it out to $ 60k
b) the 5131J was spot on where I thought it would go and was no bargain and I dropped out a bit earlier...they are around $ 100 and a few went earlier in the $ 90's.
c) the 5205 was a surprise at $ 40k as thats not far from retail
d) FPJ CB at $ 23k was strong
E) 5070J at $62.5k strong


i thought a bargain was the ALS perpetual at $30k. The platimum dato at $45? I also thought the 5159 at $43.7 was a bargain

So to be honest I was looking for some real bargains and there arent any for me yet.

[kneedeep]

The 5070R at 62k paid to the auction house by the buyer including all premiums means the owner got net to him in the 40s?

[KarlS]

Originally Posted by kneedeep

The 5070R at 62k paid to the auction house by the buyer including all premiums means the owner got net to him in the 40s?

i think $43 500

[kneedeep]

Originally Posted by KarlS

i think $43 500

I'd buy at that number!

[KarlS]

Originally Posted by kneedeep

I'd buy at that number!

so would i but that aint the price....yet!

[lapince]

Originally Posted by kneedeep

The 5070R at 62k paid to the auction house by the buyer including all premiums means the owner got net to him in the 40s?

That's really nuts, auctions can be really bad for the seller, he must not be very happy to get so little money

[jaselle]

We need to remember that one sale does not make the 'market ' and like most auctions there will be bargains and there will be some people overpaying for certain watches.At the end of the day most of the watches will have traded fairly close to their current range.People obviously paid up for Tiffany stamps as evidenced by 5711-47k, 5164-37k,5205-40k,5170-60k but there has usually been about a 10-20% Tiffany stipend on popular references. In terms of sellers dealing with auction houses many of them are not familiar with the various watch forums and trusted sellers available and are the original owners of the watches with lower cost basis than a newer modern collector would have so they are happy with their net prices and the convenience of dealing with a reputable auction house.Same can be said for some of the deep pocketed buyers who are not up to speed with current market prices and are only to happy to pay up and purchase from a prestigious auction house such as Christies.It takes a lot of the hair out of the transaction for the buyer but obviously there is a premium paid for this convenience.

[enjoythemusic]

Some good points Jaselle, yet there are guys such as myself who are very patient and prefer direct dealing to save many thousands of dollars. Perhaps it is the difference of being known within the community with cash on-hand to buy. If a Patek is an investment, then buying right is key of course to maximize profit potential. Auction houses are not necessarily the way to go about it, yet sometimes there are some deals to be had.

Baron Rothschild, an 18th century British nobleman and member of the Rothschild banking family, is credited with saying that "The time to buy is when there's blood in the streets."

[cgn_watch]

Good day from Continental Europe,

sorry for non-auction related questions...

Regarding the 5711 Tiffany dial and also for the 5712: how would an interested buyer proceed to get one at Tiffany? Do they take orders via phone/email, considering I am based in Europe or only in-store?

Only available at Tiffany New York or elsewhere, too?

How long would a waiting time be, approximately? What's the retail price for both references?

Thanks and best regards.

[rdragon]

Originally Posted by cgn_watch

Good day from Continental Europe,

sorry for non-auction related questions...

Regarding the 5711 Tiffany dial and also for the 5712: how would an interested buyer proceed to get one at Tiffany? Do they take orders via phone/email, considering I am based in Europe or only in-store?

Only available at Tiffany New York or elsewhere, too?

How long would a waiting time be, approximately? What's the retail price for both references?

Thanks and best regards.

Unlikely to get from Tiffany. They claim 10 year wait for 5711 and slightly shorter for 5712.

[jon_jon]

Originally Posted by cgn_watch

Good day from Continental Europe,

sorry for non-auction related questions...

Regarding the 5711 Tiffany dial and also for the 5712: how would an interested buyer proceed to get one at Tiffany? Do they take orders via phone/email, considering I am based in Europe or only in-store?

Only available at Tiffany New York or elsewhere, too?

How long would a waiting time be, approximately? What's the retail price for both references?

Thanks and best regards.

Originally Posted by rdragon

Unlikely to get from Tiffany. They claim 10 year wait for 5711 and slightly shorter for 5712.

I believe there are 6 Tiffany stores that sell Patek watches in the US, although NY is their flagship store. You can technically order/purchase a watch from any of these stores and sometimes they can even transfer watches between stores.

However with most Patek ADs around the world, if you have never visited the store or know an existing client of the store, it is unlikely you will be able to get on a wait list for a 5711/1A just by calling them on the phone. In my experience, most Patek ADs want to know that you are a genuine watch customer and not a re-seller. So visiting a store in person and having a face to face conversation is usually the best way, whether you are dealing with Tiffany in the US or Wempe in Germany.

I believe the retail price for the 5711/1A is $24.8K USD and the 5712/1A is $33.5K USD.

[murcielago_boy]

Sealed 5970G was CHEEEEEEEP!! Cheep cheep!

[enjoythemusic]

why cheap? 3970 RG are only $85k (actual sale price in mint cond w/box, original papers, etc).

[unknown]

Only in the US
Your currency became much more expensive
In all the other countries these patek are not much cheaper than they used to

A 5070 for example is a euro 60/65 k watch
Today and 2 years ago

Look how many usd you had to pay for a 60/65 k euro 2 years ago
And now do the same calculation today 1.06 usd for 1 euro

The watch did NOT became cheaper in 90% of the world
Only if you pay in usd


I bet in gbp they even became a lot more expensive

[enjoythemusic]

Wonder what it would be in Bitcoin? Looks like government backed paper currency is for the foolish. Venezuela, Zimbabwe, Great Britain, Canada, Euro... who's next.

Bitcoin has been a great choice, oddly enough.
https://bitcoincharts.com/charts/bit...zm1g10zm2g25zv

[Daytonaman799]

I think most modern PP has not done well at auction in the last few years. Even the 5970 has fallen from its higher levels. The exception has been the Nautilus line that has only gone up. 3700's have gone from the mid 30's just a few years ago to the 60-90k range now for good 3700's. I think people have been disappointed in modern PP in recent years. As in the new 40th anniversary Nautilus etc.

[benzng]

5396G - $118k (This was also a Tiffany dial LTD to 100). I was bidding on this but can't afford at that price) :P

[cgn_watch]

Originally Posted by jon_jon

I believe there are 6 Tiffany stores that sell Patek watches in the US, although NY is their flagship store. You can technically order/purchase a watch from any of these stores and sometimes they can even transfer watches between stores.

However with most Patek ADs around the world, if you have never visited the store or know an existing client of the store, it is unlikely you will be able to get on a wait list for a 5711/1A just by calling them on the phone. In my experience, most Patek ADs want to know that you are a genuine watch customer and not a re-seller. So visiting a store in person and having a face to face conversation is usually the best way, whether you are dealing with Tiffany in the US or Wempe in Germany.

I believe the retail price for the 5711/1A is $24.8K USD and the 5712/1A is $33.5K USD.

Thank you very much for you feedback, jon jon.

I could show the Tiffany Patek people in the US my 5712 papers, bought in September 16 with my son's name in it, to show them my "genuineness"

As you describe it it looks quite like a task to get a Tiffany nautilus...so if anyone could be of help, I'd highly appreciate it.

Have a good end of the week,
Simon