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Old 11 May 2017, 06:18 PM   #1
nick h
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KEF REFERENCE speakers in huge room

looking for peoples experiences

i could have gone on various audio forums but you tend to get 'fan boy' opinions and not from actual users

here in the UK i have been looking at a new rental property that is a former church converted into a home

the main living area is 55' x 30' and high!

so some serious equipment is going to be needed

initial chats with some dealers suggest the following

a) front left and right Kef Ref 5's

b) rear left and right Kef Ref 1's

c) centre Kef Ref centre

d) sub Kef Ref subwoofer

e) Aracam AVR 850

now, this is a serious price at around £30K and i'm not sure the amplification is sufficient and maybe power amp and processor should be incorporated?

also possibly two subs and maybe larger rears?

the problem is that none of the retailers i have spoken to have dealt with anything like this - yes, they have done £150K+ cinema rooms

in the USA you guys often have much larger rooms than in the UK so maybe somebody has some experiences?

thanks

EDIT

you may recall i have just bought a Loewe 65" OLED and Loewe audio system?

that would go in the mezzanine bedroom that is 41' x 30'
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Old 11 May 2017, 10:29 PM   #2
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Not familiar with KEF but I can tell you if I was looking to move a lot of air in a big space I'd talk to Mark Seaton first.
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Old 11 May 2017, 10:31 PM   #3
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Problem is the room. I'm not a KEF user but acoustics will be challenging. I have some 20'+ ceilings now and a wide open great room pretty much most of the first floor. I can get some decent surround and crappy bass distribution but it depends where you are. My old house had a much smaller room with 12' ceilings. The sound was so much better.

You'd definitely need more subs. You'll have bass pockets without at least 2. Depends what you are going for really. To me once you get super high end on speakers the return diminishes quickly. If it were me and I was spending $40k (which I wouldn't ), I'd strongly consider independents and more speakers for that room.
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Old 12 May 2017, 12:28 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick h View Post
looking for peoples experiences

i could have gone on various audio forums but you tend to get 'fan boy' opinions and not from actual users

here in the UK i have been looking at a new rental property that is a former church converted into a home

the main living area is 55' x 30' and high!

so some serious equipment is going to be needed

initial chats with some dealers suggest the following

a) front left and right Kef Ref 5's

b) rear left and right Kef Ref 1's

c) centre Kef Ref centre

d) sub Kef Ref subwoofer

e) Aracam AVR 850

now, this is a serious price at around £30K and i'm not sure the amplification is sufficient and maybe power amp and processor should be incorporated?

also possibly two subs and maybe larger rears?

the problem is that none of the retailers i have spoken to have dealt with anything like this - yes, they have done £150K+ cinema rooms

in the USA you guys often have much larger rooms than in the UK so maybe somebody has some experiences?

thanks

EDIT

you may recall i have just bought a Loewe 65" OLED and Loewe audio system?

that would go in the mezzanine bedroom that is 41' x 30'
I love KEFs but for such a large room. There may be some issues. Here are a few quick ideas.

1) do you want surround or 2 channel performance. If you want surround you may want to add atmos dts x speakers and larger rears and multiple subs. For 2 channel the issue imo will be at high volumes the sounds may become slightly crushed and you would want bigger front speakers. I would almost consider a very nice jbl pro audio or blades for just two channel. Or to have a high crossover point and let the kefs just play mid highs and highs then have a small sub and a low subs.

2) signal processing. You want really tight control, specific crossovers and discrete high performance amplification.
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Old 12 May 2017, 12:42 AM   #5
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To follow up slightly. The kefs are focused on sound staging with really highs end coaxials. But with a big room at high SPL you will have issues with separation. Thus why I would consider highend jbl pro audio (often used in movie theaters and concerts) 3 ways or more if you want spl. A more conventional high end speaker may be better.

If you love kef references and "2d" surround I would consider dts Neo x and add a few more kef towers which will allow the speakers to articulate each sound well even when loud by using more speakers that don't need to extend as much to get the spl.
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Old 12 May 2017, 01:30 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by codecow View Post
Not familiar with KEF but I can tell you if I was looking to move a lot of air in a big space I'd talk to Mark Seaton first.
Ditto. I have two Seaton Submersives in our theater room, amazing. Only need one from an SPL perspective, but two to achieve more even bass throughout the space. It's been awhile since I shopped around, but when I got my subs, Mark only made active speakers, so you don't need separate amps, only a pre-pro. For passive design in a room that size, check out JTR Noesis speakers. Mark Seaton and Jeff Permanian of JTR are pals and have similar design goals, different approaches.
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Old 12 May 2017, 07:34 AM   #7
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Yeah I have a single Submersive HP in my living room which is quite small and it will literally rattle the nails out of my house.
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Old 12 May 2017, 07:46 AM   #8
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I use active ATC 150 towers in a room which is pretty huge, but not as big as yours. It's the best sound I've heard in over 30 years of being a very serious hifi geek.

In my opinion (and some other people's opinion - see client list), they are the best loudspeakers money can buy.

They will do custom installations.

http://atcloudspeakers.co.uk/

http://atcloudspeakers.co.uk/client-list-pro/
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Old 12 May 2017, 09:07 AM   #9
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Hire an acoustical engineer!!!
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Old 12 May 2017, 05:33 PM   #10
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As others have stated the problems the room.
You could probably get away with substantially cheaper gear if things are properly acoustically deadened.

This video demonstrates it pretty succinctly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp56A6TcL1E
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Old 12 May 2017, 05:41 PM   #11
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Hire an acoustical engineer!!!
This is the way to go.
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Old 12 May 2017, 06:42 PM   #12
nick h
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many thanks to all of you for your observations/suggestions - much appreciated

yes, i'm looking for surround sound

i must admit i'm not surprised about the comments as i envisaged it would be very difficult to obtain superb sound without spending a huge amount

i can see echo's in such a huge volume being very problematic

also with it being a rental property i'm very limited with the amount of 'structural work' i'm allowed to do - cabling runs will be difficult as all the floors are reclaimed pine and the walls exposed stone or brick - ceilings are exposed joists

as suggested i will have an acoustic engineer have a look at the property before going any further with regards to leasing etc

thanks again - i will keep you informed
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Old 12 May 2017, 06:50 PM   #13
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Last edited by nick h; 12 May 2017 at 07:54 PM.. Reason: incorrect info
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Old 13 May 2017, 12:53 AM   #14
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I'll just throw in (as others have) that the room is the problem. I had some KEF 104.2 speakers, which were just awesome, but I'm now downsizing so I sold them last year. Shipping cost nearly as much as the speakers.

Anyway, our current house has a "family room" open to the upstairs hallway (which adds to the problem) and is about 20'x30' and 24' high ceilings with wood floors and stone fireplace surround and lots of windows. Horrible acoustics. We finally had some (custom) window treatments done, which has helped tremendously. Millions of watts and 7 channels won't help when you've got horrible echoes.

However, your new place sounds like it has lots of potential for interesting decorating challenges. Best of luck!
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Old 13 May 2017, 03:18 AM   #15
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I would seriously think before renting, that place must be hell to heat properly in winter, not even talking about the few watches it may cost you every winter, having great sound is cool, but having great sound and freezing your ass off isn't, at least know the type of heating and average sum per winter, I also have pretty big volumes, not as much as you will but ceilings 4 meter high, with individual gas heating, don't mind the price very much as it is in Ukraine and 1 cubic meter costs about 40 cents USD, but in France just using gas to cook was about 150 euros per month, can't even imagine with tye same flat in France what would have had to pay for heating, being ok with the price is one thing, freezing your ass off because you can't heat the place properly is another...
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Old 13 May 2017, 03:39 AM   #16
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I have Arcam and it's great....but that double volume is going to suck the sound...have you looked at doing 7.1 sound?
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Old 13 May 2017, 10:30 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uscmatt99 View Post
Ditto. I have two Seaton Submersives in our theater room, amazing. Only need one from an SPL perspective, but two to achieve more even bass throughout the space. It's been awhile since I shopped around, but when I got my subs, Mark only made active speakers, so you don't need separate amps, only a pre-pro. For passive design in a room that size, check out JTR Noesis speakers. Mark Seaton and Jeff Permanian of JTR are pals and have similar design goals, different approaches.
I had 2 in my livingroom.

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Old 13 May 2017, 10:36 AM   #18
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I would seriously think before renting, that place must be hell to heat properly in winter, not even talking about the few watches it may cost you every winter, having great sound is cool, but having great sound and freezing your ass off isn't, at least know the type of heating and average sum per winter, I also have pretty big volumes, not as much as you will but ceilings 4 meter high, with individual gas heating, don't mind the price very much as it is in Ukraine and 1 cubic meter costs about 40 cents USD, but in France just using gas to cook was about 150 euros per month, can't even imagine with tye same flat in France what would have had to pay for heating, being ok with the price is one thing, freezing your ass off because you can't heat the place properly is another...


Just turn on all of the amplifiers it will take to keep the wattage in that cottage and he will be opening the windows to cool off!! I am sure things have changed since I was an audiophile but my amp rack used to throw off so much heat I had to duct fresh air into the room with fans.

But seriously, this is a great point if the gas is that expensive where the op is located. Sounds like a cool space though.


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Old 13 May 2017, 10:43 AM   #19
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You live in a house that was a church ? Awesome, that's interesting in it's self. I'd like to know details about that.. how old..square feet etc.. if you could
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Old 13 May 2017, 05:24 PM   #20
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You're going to be low on amplification.

I'd look at an active system. The wiring is going to eat a lot of power alone in a room that big.

Genelec, or why not B&O?

Go with Beolab 5's, you won't need a sub.
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Old 13 May 2017, 06:25 PM   #21
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thanks for all your advice but the whole deal has fallen through as the landlord will not commit to anything longer than a 12 month rolling lease

i was originally told it would be a much longer (three year lease)

i refuse the make the financial commitment to get good audio in the property only to be told twelve months later the landlord wants to sell and will not renew the lease

heating costs were mentioned - i have previous figures and they are ok - but the property also has a very large Finnish log burner and i have a free supply of as much wood as i want so it would not have been a problem

thanks again
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