New Submariner Movement Issue?

[Trazor]

Originally Posted by themast

Glad things got resolved to your liking.

New watch seems way too good, I would be concerned!!! ahah

Yeah, only a Quartz could be that good......

[ipoh]

Hello all,
From the Rolex website, the movement is "-2/+2 sec/day, after casing".
May i know what does the 'after casing' mean? Thank you in advance.

[Vanessa CW21]

Originally Posted by JustBlueFish

I went back to the AD today with my timegrapher data and explained the situation. They agreed it didn't look right and that I shouldn't have to wait for warranty service/repair, so they replaced the watch for me with a new one.

This is my 2nd purchase from this AD and while I've always felt good about their pre-sale service, I can now say their post sale service is also second to none.

Here's a side by side comparison of the original Submariner on the timegrapher and the new one I picked up today. It looks like a marked improvement.

The 2nd one looks great! You were right to be concerned. The 273' amplitude wasn't high enough either for a fully wound watch!

[Vanessa CW21]

Originally Posted by ipoh

Hello all,
From the Rolex website, the movement is "-2/+2 sec/day, after casing".
May i know what does the 'after casing' mean? Thank you in advance.

The movements get tested outside of the case by COSC. After they put them inside their cases, they get tested by Rolex again to make sure nothing happened to the accuracy during transport and assembling. So after casing refers to, after the watch was fully completed, put in the case.

[JustBlueFish]

Originally Posted by Vanessa CW21

The 2nd one looks great! You were right to be concerned. The 273' amplitude wasn't high enough either for a fully wound watch!

Vanessa thanks for the reply. I wonder do you know off the top of your head what is the correct lift angle setting for the 3135 movement? I had it set to 52 degrees but I wasn’t certain that’s correct.


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[Vanessa CW21]

Originally Posted by JustBlueFish

Vanessa thanks for the reply. I wonder do you know off the top of your head what is the correct lift angle setting for the 3135 movement? I had it set to 52 degrees but I wasn’t certain that’s correct.


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52 is correct

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[ipoh]

Originally Posted by Vanessa CW21

The movements get tested outside of the case by COSC. After they put them inside their cases, they get tested by Rolex again to make sure nothing happened to the accuracy during transport and assembling. So after casing refers to, after the watch was fully completed, put in the case.

Thanks for your info!


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[erhein]

Originally Posted by Vanessa CW21

The 2nd one looks great! You were right to be concerned. The 273' amplitude wasn't high enough either for a fully wound watch!

This raises a question with me. When Rolex guarantees a watch to within +2/-2s/d, does it also warrant a certain range of amplitude and/or beat error? Can't a watch be running at an accurate rate, but be above or below its ideal amplitude or above acceptable beat error? In other words, does Rolex guarantee that a new watch will stay within a certain rate, amplitude and beat error for the duration of the warranty period?

[Vanessa CW21]

Originally Posted by erhein

This raises a question with me. When Rolex guarantees a watch to within +2/-2s/d, does it also warrant a certain range of amplitude and/or beat error? Can't a watch be running at an accurate rate, but be above or below its ideal amplitude or above acceptable beat error? In other words, does Rolex guarantee that a new watch will stay within a certain rate, amplitude and beat error for the duration of the warranty period?

If a watch runs consistently within the -2 to +2 range, the rest should all line up. One can not run right without a good amplitude, or minimal beat error. (Rolex allows up to 0.8 error)
In other words, if the amplitude gets too low, the time will be affected, which will be noticed by the customer, and can be sent in for warranty work if deemed necessary.
I rarely see the amplitude "off" on the 31xx movements unless there's excessive metal dust from a scraping rotor, or the hairspring got magnetized.
The ideal amplitude on a fully wound watch is no lower than 270 degrees. From experience I know the 31xx's do better than 280 generally.

[erhein]

Thank you for clarifying that. Much appreciated.

[Romeojk]

Originally Posted by JustBlueFish

I went back to the AD today with my timegrapher data and explained the situation. They agreed it didn't look right and that I shouldn't have to wait for warranty service/repair, so they replaced the watch for me with a new one.

This is my 2nd purchase from this AD and while I've always felt good about their pre-sale service, I can now say their post sale service is also second to none.

Here's a side by side comparison of the original Submariner on the timegrapher and the new one I picked up today. It looks like a marked improvement.

Awesome!!


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[Blnrwearer]

I think my 2+ year old BLNR has the similar problem. I may need to take it to RSC to check it out.

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=545167

[flintsghost]

When I bought my first Rolex Sub in 1970, the dealer had me bring it in after two weeks to adjust the mechanism. He said it would be normal to be off. Currently I have a NOS SD40 that I bought that is +2 consistently right out of the box. I considered that to be good. However after my D series SD40 went to Vanessa in CA for a complete service, it came back and initial check show it in the +1/+2 range for 3 days and then I checked it again and it was 0 deviation and has remained perfect for 3 weeks now. According to what she told me in our last conversation online that is what she expects from the ones she services. I used the NIST Atomic clock on line to check mine and as long as I do my part when I set it, it works fine.

[No SUBctitute]

Originally Posted by JustBlueFish

I went back to the AD today with my timegrapher data and explained the situation. They agreed it didn't look right and that I shouldn't have to wait for warranty service/repair, so they replaced the watch for me with a new one.

WHAT AN AWESOME OUTCOME!

And much to the suprise of some on the board who said that the AD would never take it back.

Name the AD. Write a review on Yelp and the Rolex Watch Review section. Spread the word that this is how ADs should stand behind Rolex watches!

[No SUBctitute]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

p Its 4 seconds per day off instead of 2 out of 86,400 seconds.

Some here would say that's really good accuracy because its 99.99537% accurate. That sounds good.

But it only sounds good because we have been conditioned based on our environment to have an opinion about how numbers sound. 99% on a school exam is quite good. A 99% success rate for attempting most things is pretty good. The majority of people don't often see numbers higher than 99% in our every day life.

So when we see 99.99537% we think it must be really good. But what about 99.95%? That sounds pretty good, too, right? However, that would be 43 seconds off per day, which is not so good for a watch.

So, defining things in terms of percentages is only useful if we put it in the context of that item/activity/result. For example, if a batter hits 40% of balls pitched to him that's really good. 40% is good for batting, while 99% for watches (14 minutes off per day) is really bad.

My automatic Seiko that I bought for $100 runs with 99.99% accuracy, about 9 second off per day. So I certainly wouldn't be impressed if a Rolex runs with 99.99% accuracy. Or even 99.99537% accuracy. I'd like my BNIB Rolex operating with at least 99.997685% accuracy---that's two seconds per day.

So, OP, what is the accuracy of your replacement watch?

[JustBlueFish]

Originally Posted by No SUBctitute

Some here would say that's really good accuracy because its 99.99537% accurate. That sounds good.



But it only sounds good because we have been conditioned based on our environment to have an opinion about how numbers sound. 99% on a school exam is quite good. A 99% success rate for attempting most things is pretty good. The majority of people don't often see numbers higher than 99% in our every day life.



So when we see 99.99537% we think it must be really good. But what about 99.95%? That sounds pretty good, too, right? However, that would be 43 seconds off per day, which is not so good for a watch.



So, defining things in terms of percentages is only useful if we put it in the context of that item/activity/result. For example, if a batter hits 40% of balls pitched to him that's really good. 40% is good for batting, while 99% for watches (14 minutes off per day) is really bad.



My automatic Seiko that I bought for $100 runs with 99.99% accuracy, about 9 second off per day. So I certainly wouldn't be impressed if a Rolex runs with 99.99% accuracy. Or even 99.99537% accuracy. I'd like my BNIB Rolex operating with at least 99.997685% accuracy---that's two seconds per day.



So, OP, what is the accuracy of your replacement watch?

Very well said bravo.

My new watch so far is gaining something on the order of +1 every 2-3 days. It’s so accurate I can’t really tell. I’ll need to track it for weeks and find an average.

The AD is Bigham Jewelers in Naples FL btw. They don’t do online sales of new watches or over the phone/ship with first time customers which is why I didn’t see any real reason to point it out. But since you asked.


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[Rikki]

Typically the beat rate should be as close to 0 as you can get both seemed to be 0.3 ms those little dots below the main line usually indicate a bent tooth on the escape wheel, which will affect amplitude. Second one looks fine you should have no issues enjoy Rik

[ipoh]

Originally Posted by erhein

This. A full wind is very important with the Timegrapher.

Newbie here. Would you mind to explain the difference in accuracy when the watch is in full wind and partial? Does the accuracy drop when the power on the main spring drop? Tks in advance


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[Rikki]

The higher the power on the mainspring the more stable the amplitude and the more degree of arc which is what amplitude is. As the balance spins to its furthest degree of arc and engages the pallet fork it moves the rest of the gears. At full power and amplitude it is the longest time between beats, as the power decreases the amplitude also decreases causing the balance to engage the pallet for sooner causing the watch to speed up slightly. Rolex watches are tested at full power and again after 24 hours and the timing is averaged out. Hope that explains a little bit about what goes into timing also 5 to 6 position timing to get a better timing average. Rik

[ipoh]

Originally Posted by Rikki

The higher the power on the mainspring the more stable the amplitude and the more degree of arc which is what amplitude is. As the balance spins to its furthest degree of arc and engages the pallet fork it moves the rest of the gears. At full power and amplitude it is the longest time between beats, as the power decreases the amplitude also decreases causing the balance to engage the pallet for sooner causing the watch to speed up slightly. Rolex watches are tested at full power and again after 24 hours and the timing is averaged out. Hope that explains a little bit about what goes into timing also 5 to 6 position timing to get a better timing average. Rik

Tks Rik for your explaination.


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[Lartamia]

+1 thx

[Beowulf]

Which device did you use for the measurements OP? Looks interesting.

[JustBlueFish]

Originally Posted by Beowulf

Which device did you use for the measurements OP? Looks interesting.

It’s an inexpensive timegrapher, Weishi No. 1000. People certainly knock them as being low quality but mines great and shows comparable readings to my Rolex dealers very expensive Swiss made Witschi machine.


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[Lawisme]

Originally Posted by JustBlueFish

Very well said bravo.

My new watch so far is gaining something on the order of +1 every 2-3 days. It’s so accurate I can’t really tell. I’ll need to track it for weeks and find an average.

The AD is Bigham Jewelers in Naples FL btw. They don’t do online sales of new watches or over the phone/ship with first time customers which is why I didn’t see any real reason to point it out. But since you asked.


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This probably has to do with how you set it...I'm sure at certain positions it would lose more time or gain more time

[erhein]

X2 with respect to the Timegrapher. Very good tool for the home enthusiast.

[keepitsimple]

Originally Posted by erhein

X2 with respect to the Timegrapher. Very good tool for the home enthusiast.

Agreed.

Without one how do you know how well that new expensive new watch is actually running, even if it seems to be keeping good time ? Relying on the manufacturer's marketing assurances that it must be fine ? Note that most (if any ?) don't give you the COSC certificate or even their own timing results.

The OP's example is a good one - accuracy seemed to be reasonably OK without being outstanding, and several contributors telling him that there was no problem with it - but in reality it was pants once you took a close look at how it was running.

Ditto that expensive service you had done that promises to return a watch to ex-factory condition. I've sent a couple of watches back because they clearly weren't.

You have to wonder how many folk without one of these get sub-standard products or service without ever knowing.