Says Original 5513,But dial incorrect for 1979

[Some Pair]

Tho "sober" seller seems to try and be earnest in the description, The Luminova dial would be incorrect for a 6 mil serial / 1979 model. Seems there are no interested takers thus far. Any "sober" ideas Gents?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rolex-5513-Extra...1%7C240%3A1309

[ROGERB]

Band is not original to year either, looks like a fair amount of replacement when serviced in 2004..
R

[springer]

Ibsober auctions have been discussed here in the Watchout section before. As I recall, they weren't positive comments.

I second the observations previously mentioned by other forum members on this watch.

It has a replacement dial and band. The band is missing the notch found on the side of the clasp for the vintage 93150 band. The dial should be tritium, this is a late 1990's dial. His auction is very deceptive and he exhorts how everything is 100% original. If you don't mind these replacement parts, then this auction could be for you. With that in mind, you should be getting this information from the sellers auction and not here on a discussion forum. Personally, I don't trust this type of listing as the seller is puposely deceptive or knows little about the watch but claims it is 100% original. I would not buy this watch as I don't like surprises.

This is what the seller states about the watch:

Watch had a complete service in 2004 and comes with the Rolex service agreement. Overall condition is excellent. This watch was worn lightly and is all original and untouched. Comes with the original inner box, Rolex Service manual and Rolex Service Guarantee. This is not one of the "Frankenwatch 5513's". Comes with the original Rolex band and all the links as well as the original dial, hands, and bezel insert issued by Rolex.

Instead of admitting that it has replacement parts, he deceptively added the caveat at the end of this paragraph which reads, "issued by Rolex." That will be his excuse when questioned on his listing, but what does issued by Rolex mean. To me, and many others, it doesn't mean original, that's for sure. Further, the seller probably doesn't want the casual ebay buyer to know it has replacement Rolex parts, as these parts lower the value of the watch significantly. Expect to spend about $1200-$1500 to make this watch "original" instead of "issued by Rolex."

Lastly, there is nothing wrong with buying a Rolex with replacement parts as long as you know that at the time of purchase. The problem always arises later, when the buyer finds out too late that his "original Rolex" purchase has non-original parts that are service replacement parts.

[tudorman8276]

...seller is being totally DECEPTIVE in the way the watch is represented.

...lets see what eBay thinks.

Stan.

ibsober.jpg

[stevemulholland3]

I believe he is saying original rolex parts...and we have discussed ibsobers auctions before and it was not all negative...craig is a very honest man and would never cheat someone knowingly or intentionally.I have dealt with him for a long time and he actually will send me a watch to inspect before payment!
if you have a question about his watch why dont you ask him about it..he will gladly discuss anything you like.

[springer]

Originally Posted by stevemulholland3

I believe he is saying original rolex parts...and we have discussed ibsobers auctions before and it was not all negative...craig is a very honest man and would never cheat someone knowingly or intentionally.I have dealt with him for a long time and he actually will send me a watch to inspect before payment!
if you have a question about his watch why dont you ask him about it..he will gladly discuss anything you like.

With all due respect Steve to your opinion , and your friend, the guy is deceptive. Because you have a relationship or know the guy doesn't mean everyone on the "bay" does. He's hyping the watch as original, why would one question it.

Further, he was contacted regarding this auction and I have yet to receive a response.

Lastly, what's the problem of listing an item as it is? Is he going to tell someone after the auction ends that two major parts of the watch are replacement parts or, will he tell them only if they ask? If he knows this in advance, I'll leave it as deceptive and refrain from adding any other adjectives to my opinion of deceptive.

You know, as well as I, that the value in any collector watch is based on the originality of the watch - that is why original parts are expensive.

[ibsober]

I have had some run into problems here before and have bowed before your knowledge. All work done to this watch was done by Rolex. I clearly state the watch has only been serviced by Rolex. The build sheet was for replacement dial, hands, bezel insert and bracelet. I just got back an oysterquartz that had everything replaced but the movement all work was done by Rolex...just like this watch. There is no effort at deciet. The pictures are clear, the description plainly states the watch was serviced in 2004 and shows all information. If Rolex will even service a vintage watch they do it their way. Any and all items touched, altered or removed were done by Rolex of Dallas...not some shade tree watchmaker. This is a nice clean 5513....it keeps good time and certainly does not have the exact parts from 1979...they were changed in 2004. In the event the watch is relisted I will certainly list all the "Rolex" replaced parts. However in no way have I attempted to defraud anyone, and this in no form or fashion is a deceptive ad. My honesty and integrity have been called into question on this forum more than once. I have pulled down auctions myself that were not correct and I sell to a number of members of this forum and not once have I had a watch returned by any of you, or by one of my buyers. In each and every case that there has been a problem I have done the right thing. In this instance the watch is correct in what Rolex would have done if they were given a vintage watch. I would certainly appreciate your consideration in this matter since I honestly believe the watch has been accurately described.

[ibsober]

You Got Another One! Ebay is listing the watch as a fake...there was nothing on the watch that Rolex did not put there in 2004. Hope I can do something to help you guys out sometime.

[tudorman8276]

...eBay thought so also as it is now invalid.

...with all due respect to you ibsober, you may take it up with the powers to be at eBay and state your argument with those folks.

Stan.

[ibsober]

Well the powers that be do not have their own staff to examine items...they take your advise...and apparently they take it quite a bit. Last time myself or any other power seller tried dispute the advise of the Rolex Forum we were sanctioned...so you guys are doing a god job with ebay. Keep up the good work.

[springer]

Originally Posted by ibsober

I have had some run into problems here before and have bowed before your knowledge. All work done to this watch was done by Rolex. I clearly state the watch has only been serviced by Rolex. The build sheet was for replacement dial, hands, bezel insert and bracelet. I just got back an oysterquartz that had everything replaced but the movement all work was done by Rolex...just like this watch. There is no effort at deciet. The pictures are clear, the description plainly states the watch was serviced in 2004 and shows all information. If Rolex will even service a vintage watch they do it their way. Any and all items touched, altered or removed were done by Rolex of Dallas...not some shade tree watchmaker. This is a nice clean 5513....it keeps good time and certainly does not have the exact parts from 1979...they were changed in 2004. In the event the watch is relisted I will certainly list all the "Rolex" replaced parts. However in no way have I attempted to defraud anyone, and this in no form or fashion is a deceptive ad. My honesty and integrity have been called into question on this forum more than once. I have pulled down auctions myself that were not correct and I sell to a number of members of this forum and not once have I had a watch returned by any of you, or by one of my buyers. In each and every case that there has been a problem I have done the right thing. In this instance the watch is correct in what Rolex would have done if they were given a vintage watch. I would certainly appreciate your consideration in this matter since I honestly believe the watch has been accurately described.

That was nice to provide all this information here. Why didn't you provide it to all the buyers on ebay? Most buyers, from my experience, have no clue that your watch has Rolex replacement parts that significantly alter the value of the watch. So what is the problem identifying the replacement parts in the auction?

Having a Rolex with non-original replacement parts does not, by any stretch of the imagination, make it original. And, as most collectors know, it significantly detracts from the value of the watch. I would assume you know this since you claim to have sold vintage Rolexes in the past.

[vtime716]

are replacement parts from rolex center considered not original? does it significantly reduce the value of the watch? how about the glass, crown , tube, hands, dial, movement parts ..... replace by rolex center? will the value of the watch detracts somehow? just asking???

[TimeToGo]

That was nice to provide all this information here. Why didn't you provide it to all the buyers on ebay? Most buyers, from my experience, have no clue that your watch has Rolex replacement parts that significantly alter the value of the watch. So what is the problem identifying the replacement parts in the auction?

Having a Rolex with non-original replacement parts does not, by any stretch of the imagination, make it original. And, as most collectors know, it significantly detracts from the value of the watch. I would assume you know this since you claim to have sold vintage Rolexes in the past.
__________________

Springer, AGREE 100%....
A disclosure of this information would have been noted....

[springer]

Originally Posted by vtime716

are replacement parts from rolex center considered not original? does it significantly reduce the value of the watch? how about the glass, crown , tube, hands, dial, movement parts ..... replace by rolex center? will the value of the watch detracts somehow? just asking???

Sounds like a new topic in the making Vtime. This thread dealt with two specific items that significantly affect the value of the watch. Personally, I believe some of the items you listed affect the value of vintage watches, some don't. Depending on the watch and model.

Having a replacement Rolex dial on a 1950's vintage Sub or GMT would affect the value significantly, more so than the crystal. As far as a crown, crystal, hands etc. goes, depends on how much of a purist you are and the price negotiated for the watch.

[stevemulholland3]

I totally disagree with the attitude you guys just gave a very good friend of mine.
Craig would give anyone of you the shirt off of his back if you needed it.back when I had to sell a watch to buy another he was the one who trusted me enough to send me what I needed and pay him later...he definitely didnt deserve this..I believe you read into that listing exactly what you wanted too.I read in it that the parts where all rolex original..AND THEY WHERE!
I am going to leave this at that before I say something I might regret.
all I have to say is that there are plenty of scumbags out there that are really trying to screw people out of their money and craig was not one of them.
I stake my reputation on it!!

[ibsober]

Ebay has taken their action you guy got your way. I sell to a number of folks on this forum. If any of them have had a problem with the watch I have done whatever it took to make it right. There are a number of folks out there, nearly 700 who have been totally satisfied with the watches I sell. You send a vintage watch to Rolex, they take your dial and they will not give you the parts they remove. The 5513 was a nice clean watch, not a perfect collector item, but each and every part placed on that watch was done by Rolex. I look at what some of you buy on ebay, one of the guys in this thread bought a blank set of papers and a vintage watch box...I'm sure it was for "his collection". The watch was not perfect, it was accurately described. Send your 5513, or 1680 to Rolex and see what you get back. The band and dial were from the 2004 service...for $5000 the watch was right priced to wear, not sit in a safe.
Anyway, I bow out of the thread, no emails to trust and safety, no hard feelings...you win, I lose...guess I'll just wear and enjoy the less than perfect 5513. Good luck finding one at that price or in that condition.

[ibsober]

Had a nice chat with some guys at trust and safety. They assured me the watch would be fine with this description. You guy have a good time...gotta go.

[gingi310]

Fixed the description and lowered the starting price...EVERYBODY WINS!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=290276209207

Originally Posted by ibsober

Anyway, I bow out of the thread, no emails to trust and safety, no hard feelings...you win, I lose...guess I'll just wear and enjoy the less than perfect 5513. Good luck finding one at that price or in that condition.

Gotta love it!

[Marrk]

Springer is right on this one. That last sentence is misleading and, if the seller is honest, there's no reason why the facts could not have been presented more clearly.

To ibsober: While there is honor in making good when a customer raises an issue with a sale, there is perhaps more honor in not allowing such events to occur in the first place. With 700 successful sales under your belt, I'm sure you know the difference between Rolex original parts and Rolex replacement parts. The issue Springer raises is one of "good faith."

I'm not a watch expert, nor am I an ebay shopper, but reading English happens to be my profession. That text is misleading at best, deceptive at worst.




This is what the seller states about the watch:

Watch had a complete service in 2004 and comes with the Rolex service agreement. Overall condition is excellent. This watch was worn lightly and is all original and untouched. Comes with the original inner box, Rolex Service manual and Rolex Service Guarantee. This is not one of the "Frankenwatch 5513's". Comes with the original Rolex band and all the links as well as the original dial, hands, and bezel insert issued by Rolex.

[SLS]

Late to the party, but I have been following this thread. IMO a seller is as only as good as his/her word and when dealing in vintage pieces the descriptrion has to be as accurate as possible. I found the initial listing misleading, but I know enough to read between the lines and see the watch for what it is, but not everyone does. Any seller's success is based on there honesty, if the original posting would have read the way the relisting did this thread would be a moot point. Isober may be a great seller, but why such a misleading ad when everybody who collects knows what this watch really is? It appears to me that Isober was trying to take advantage of an uninformed buyer, this is what I have a problem with.
~Scott

[ibsober]

Obviously can't please everyone...tried to fix the problem in an effort to save my reputation with the forum, if by now I have any to save. Sorry the effort was wasted on a few of you. Gotta go, but I'll see a few of you in a watch deal or two.

[Sputnik]

Originally Posted by SLS

Late to the party, but I have been following this thread. IMO a seller is as only as good as his/her word and when dealing in vintage pieces the descriptrion has to be as accurate as possible. I found the initial listing misleading, but I know enough to read between the lines and see the watch for what it is, but not everyone does. Any seller's success is based on there honesty, if the original posting would have read the way the relisting did this thread would be a moot point. Isober may be a great seller, but why such a misleading ad when everybody who collects knows what this watch really is? It appears to me that Isober was trying to take advantage of an uninformed buyer, this is what I have a problem with.
~Scott

As a new member on the forum here, I found this thread interesting and couldn't understand how some here claim to be friends of ibsober but failed to see any deception this ebay listing. Further I agree wholeheartedly with the posts regarding this rather dubious auction description and the deception in the listing. Also, several questions were posed to ibsober which gave him the opportunity to clear this up, but he failed to answer any of them and instead took swipes at some member here for what they purchased on ebay.

[Some Pair]

I am pleased that most agree with what I saw and felt about the auction as a thread starter.
But putting emotions and or personal friendships towards "ibsober" aside, and not saying seller isn't a nice guy, it was what it was. An auction without full disclosure of some pretty important points to a perspective buyer.

As an esteemed and longtime Rolex & Timepiece seller with over 700 transactions would know that, should know that.
My thought is "Buyer Beware" may be true enough and normal protocol on ebay, but if it gets to this forum then "Seller beware".
Also, the idea of "ibsober" speaking on or about forum member's that buy paper's or boxes on ebay, and making inuendo or conjecture as to why they do it... Well why not wait til someone trys to sell something here that doesn't "appear correct" before jumping to a conclusion that does nothing but spell "sour grapes" on his part.
"Watch Out" is just that. Good folk watching out, and taking the correction "if it is due, and if it is just"
JMO