Bought Rolex but received Empty Box--HELP

[MinMay]

In the end, the 9K question....

Who is responsible for the 9K? SELLER or BUYER?

If the BUYER did everything righteously and he doesn't get his money back, then that's messed up. I can't imagine any BUYER going to wire money for a watch if SELLER holds no responsibility. Isn't that why the price includes INSURANCE to cover the SELLER since BUYER can not make a claim? Can you imagine if SELLER starts to say "I sent you a box (with or without a watch) with tracking information..and it's not my problem anymore?"

[037]

Originally Posted by MinMay

In the end, the 9K question....

Who is responsible for the 9K? SELLER or BUYER?

If the BUYER did everything righteously and he doesn't get his money back, then that's messed up. I can't imagine any BUYER going to wire money for a watch if SELLER holds no responsibility. Isn't that why the price includes INSURANCE to cover the SELLER since BUYER can not make a claim? Can you imagine if SELLER starts to say "I sent you a box (with or without a watch) with tracking information..and it's not my problem anymore?"

Well, it's still day one. No insurance company pays out in milliseconds. It's far too soon to make a call on this one.

To answer your first question, the seller is responsible for collecting insurance. How long that will take is unknown. Whether the buyer is getting scammed is unknown. Whether the seller is scamming the seller is unknown. Whether or not the shipper (UPS Store), courier (UPS) or recipient (apartment complex) stole the watch is unknown.

There are a lot of unknowns and very little known.

Panicking over buying or selling won't help.

[CorradoBrit]

Originally Posted by 037

Well, it's still day one. No insurance company pays out in milliseconds. It's far too soon to make a call on this one.

To answer your first question, the seller is responsible for collecting insurance. How long that will take is unknown. Whether the buyer is getting scammed is unknown. Whether the seller is scamming the seller is unknown. Whether or not the shipper (UPS Store), courier (UPS) or recipient (apartment complex) stole the watch is unknown.

There are a lot of unknowns and very little known.

Panicking over buying or selling won't help.

I think he's assuming UPS insurance will deny the claim. If thats the case it will be the Courts who will decide, but who is the plaintiff and who is the defendant is unclear at this moment.
OP, what did your attorney advise?

Trusted/established seller with 10's or 100's of successful transactions, AD or face-to-face is the only option for me moving forward. This has been an eyeopener and just illustrates the many pitfalls in the whole process of buying and selling watches.

[MinMay]

Originally Posted by CorradoBrit

I think he's assuming UPS insurance will deny the claim. If thats the case it will be the Courts who will decide, but who is the plaintiff and who is the defendant is unclear at this moment.
OP, what did your attorney advise?

Trusted/established seller with 10's or 100's of successful transactions, AD or face-to-face is the only option for me moving forward. This has been an eyeopener and just illustrates the many pitfalls in the whole process of buying and selling watches.

I agree with you.

[MinMay]

Originally Posted by 037

Well, it's still day one. No insurance company pays out in milliseconds. It's far too soon to make a call on this one.

To answer your first question, the seller is responsible for collecting insurance. How long that will take is unknown. Whether the buyer is getting scammed is unknown. Whether the seller is scamming the seller is unknown. Whether or not the shipper (UPS Store), courier (UPS) or recipient (apartment complex) stole the watch is unknown.

There are a lot of unknowns and very little known.

Panicking over buying or selling won't help.

What if... :)

UPS and Insurance denied the claim?

We do know the weight is about the same 2 pounds after UPS store scan the package and BUYER receiving it. Now, what happen between the SELLER and UPS packaging the box. It should lead us to the missing watch.

[CorradoBrit]

Originally Posted by MinMay

We do know the weight is about the same 2 pounds after UPS store scan the package and BUYER receiving it. Now, what happen between the SELLER and UPS packaging the box. It should lead us to the missing watch.

Unless the watch was never in the box in the first place. We don't know if UPS saw the contents of the Rolex box before it was handed over for packaging and weighing.

[helo008]

Originally Posted by CorradoBrit

Unless the watch was never in the box in the first place. We don't know if UPS saw the contents of the Rolex box before it was handed over for packaging and weighing.

Unfortunately, the counter staff did not see the watch, as confirmed to me by the seller and in his previous post:

Originally Posted by william21

The transaction moved forward and he processed a direct bank wire very quickly (thus, alleviating some concerns there). I utilized my local UPS Store and had them insure it for the watch's value. The counter staff did not see the watch but confirmed its make/model upon receipt. When I asked the franchisee owner if that was routine, she said that it was and is required to insure that amount. The box was taped, packaged and scanned on the spot. The weight was 1 lbs. 15.5 oz. I sent the tracking number immediately

[Al1969]

Originally Posted by helo008

Unfortunately, the counter staff did not see the watch, as confirmed to me by the seller and in his previous post:

How were they able to “comfirm” the watch without seeing it? And why did they need to?

Helo008, Were You given an explanation by the seller?

Hope this gets resolved for all parties involved.

[helo008]

Originally Posted by Al1969

How and why did they need to “comfirm” the watch without seeing it?

Helo008, Were You given an explanation by the seller?

Hope this gets resolved for all parties involved.

I'm not sure why they needed the specific information for the watch as on the copy of the shipping receipt I received from the seller, the description simply says "rolex"(sic). Again, hard for me to say as I wasn't there.

The seller has stated that he is entirely sure of packing the watch into the box and drove it straight to the UPS store directly after. Other than that, no explanation was made, but he is pursuing claims with UPS. I have requested that he issue me a refund because I did not receive the item I paid for but he has refused to do so.

Thanks for the good wishes. I hope this gets resolved soon too.

[springer]

Originally Posted by MinMay

In the end, the 9K question....

Who is responsible for the 9K? SELLER or BUYER?

If the BUYER did everything righteously and he doesn't get his money back, then that's messed up. I can't imagine any BUYER going to wire money for a watch if SELLER holds no responsibility. Isn't that why the price includes INSURANCE to cover the SELLER since BUYER can not make a claim? Can you imagine if SELLER starts to say "I sent you a box (with or without a watch) with tracking information..and it's not my problem anymore?"

One more time, insurance ends when the package is signed for. The buyer should have never allowed someone else to sign for the package. It is clear to me that the watch was stolen by a UPS employee or someone at the apartment complex. I would venture to say that a UPS employee is probably the culprit. Once the watch was lifted from the package, the thief let the package be delivered raising suspicions that the seller, buyer or receiver (one who signed for for the package) would become suspects in the theft and therefore draw attention away from a package that was never delivered - which would place full liability on UPS.

If I remember correctly after reading this extensive missive, the police verified the box had been re-taped. Whoever stole it has surely been involved in this practice before.

[helo008]

Originally Posted by springer

One more time, insurance ends when the package is signed for. The buyer should have never allowed someone else to sign for the package. It is clear to me that the watch was stolen by a UPS employee or someone at the apartment complex. I would venture to say that a UPS employee is probably the culprit. Once the watch was lifted from the package, the thief let the package be delivered raising suspicions that the seller, buyer or receiver (one who signed for for the package) would become suspects in the theft and therefore draw attention away from a package that was never delivered - which would place full liability on UPS.

If I remember correctly after reading this extensive missive, the police verified the box had been re-taped. Whoever stole it has surely been involved in this practice before.

Just wanted to chime in on this as a couple people have brought up my apartment staff. In my building, it's pretty much accepted that UPS themselves sometimes decides to deliver items straight to the office even if they are signature-required, and that's not something that we but rather UPS couriers decide at their own discretion. Sometimes, they'll come straight to the apartment, but often they'll just decide themselves to let someone sign for it and there's no option for me to decide otherwise. I did not at any point let UPS give someone else the watch--UPS made the decision to do so themselves.

However, with that said, I do not believe the apartment staff at my complex were complicit in any way. The reason is that the daily UPS/Fedex/USPS deliveries come all together every day, meaning that quite literally they can receive 20-30 boxes at the same time each delivery. Given that the delivery took place at 11:29am, they would have had to go through all these packages, label them by apartment number, and move them into the mail room and record their receipt. This all happens in an all-glass office where there are at least two employees working. It also doubles as our leasing office, which means tenants come in at any point to pick up packages or address any issues they might have.

I picked up the package roughly 45 minutes after it was delivered, and the two staff members on duty have been working here for the last 2 years at least and I am familiar with both of them. In this short time frame, they would have had to sort all the packages, label them, and record them; I honestly don't believe they would have had the time or idea to open one random package (that was not labeled "Rolex" or "high value" in any way) out of so many, take out only a watch, and reseal it without any obvious signs of tampering, all in full view of our building lobby and anyone on the street. I also do not have a history of ordering high value items, so I doubt my name on the package would have drawn attention to the package either.

[CorradoBrit]

Originally Posted by helo008

Just wanted to chime in on this as a couple people have brought up my apartment staff. In my building, it's pretty much accepted that UPS themselves sometimes decides to deliver items straight to the office even if they are signature-required, and that's not something that we but rather UPS couriers decide at their own discretion. Sometimes, they'll come straight to the apartment, but often they'll just decide themselves to let someone sign for it and there's no option for me to decide otherwise. I did not at any point let UPS give someone else the watch--UPS made the decision to do so themselves.

This is one thing I really dislike about these shipping companies. Fedex is just as bad. So long as someone over age 18 signs they consider that 'delivered'. I have had issues in past with unauthorized people signing for my packages when dropped off at the wrong address. I've had numerous packages be delivered to an almost identical address @'Road' vs my address which ends in 'Court'.

For high value items I always have package drop shipped to the nearest Fedex or UPS shipping center. At least there I have to show my ID and I'm sure I sign for it. I'll also open the box in front of the staff before leaving.

[southtexas]

Sorry double post

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by southtexas

You can pay a little extra for Direct signature required, meaning person on label must sign for it. That would at least cut out the question of the apartment worker as a suspect.

I’m still confused as to how the weight on the label is LESS than the weight of the box in its current condition. (If it can now be weighed on multiple scales of same brand/issue to UPs stores), it seems to me that means the scale at the departure store was incorrect and therefore provided no further clues (unless as someone pointed out, there’s a registry of weights in transit?).

Secondly, was the word ‘Rolex’ written on the label? USA sellers/shippers (shipping within USA)—do NOT ever disclose what’s in the box on any labeling. ParcelPro codes it as “precision instrument” and they actually don’t allow you to use the word “watch” or brand name in your label (domestic or international).



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CorradoBrit]

Originally Posted by southtexas

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Per Fedex
“Direct Signature Required: FedEx obtains a signature from someone at the delivery address. If no one is at the address, we reattempt delivery. Adult Signature Required: FedEx obtains a signature from someone at least 21 years old (and possessing the required government-issued photo ID) at the delivery address.”

That means even if selected as direct sig. an employee at the apt could have signed for delivery as they would satisfy those requirements.

[helo008]

Originally Posted by southtexas

was the word ‘Rolex’ written on the label? USA sellers/shippers (shipping within USA)—do NOT ever disclose what’s in the box on any labeling. ParcelPro codes it as “precision instrument” and they actually don’t allow you to use the word “watch” or brand name in your label (domestic or international).

southtexas,

The word "rolex"(sic) was written on the shipping receipt but not on the label. I'm assuming this means that the seller told the employees at the UPS store as they printed the label and receipt. That means that other than the employees in the UPS store at the time, there were no individuals along the way who knew what was in that package.

[Rolex85]

Originally Posted by helo008

Just wanted to chime in on this as a couple people have brought up my apartment staff. In my building, it's pretty much accepted that UPS themselves sometimes decides to deliver items straight to the office even if they are signature-required, and that's not something that we but rather UPS couriers decide at their own discretion. Sometimes, they'll come straight to the apartment, but often they'll just decide themselves to let someone sign for it and there's no option for me to decide otherwise. I did not at any point let UPS give someone else the watch--UPS made the decision to do so themselves.

However, with that said, I do not believe the apartment staff at my complex were complicit in any way. The reason is that the daily UPS/Fedex/USPS deliveries come all together every day, meaning that quite literally they can receive 20-30 boxes at the same time each delivery. Given that the delivery took place at 11:29am, they would have had to go through all these packages, label them by apartment number, and move them into the mail room and record their receipt. This all happens in an all-glass office where there are at least two employees working. It also doubles as our leasing office, which means tenants come in at any point to pick up packages or address any issues they might have.

I picked up the package roughly 45 minutes after it was delivered, and the two staff members on duty have been working here for the last 2 years at least and I am familiar with both of them. In this short time frame, they would have had to sort all the packages, label them, and record them; I honestly don't believe they would have had the time or idea to open one random package (that was not labeled "Rolex" or "high value" in any way) out of so many, take out only a watch, and reseal it without any obvious signs of tampering, all in full view of our building lobby and anyone on the street. I also do not have a history of ordering high value items, so I doubt my name on the package would have drawn attention to the package either.

This is a good point to bring up as I am not sure what the rules are (maybe someone with inside knowledge of shipping companies can chime in) but wouldn’t UPS be on the hook for this for the very fact that they turned over the package to someone who IS NOT the intended recipient? I know here in Canada we have what is called an “authorized release section” on each one of our ups packages coming to us and that means if I will not be home to sign for it I can authorize them to leave it with someone that is not me. If I do not authorize that and my shipment is “signature required” UPS will NOT leave my package with anyone else and it is brought back to the UPS “local facility” where I can pick it up and show my ID. If the recipient of this package did not sign an authorization giving UPS the right to leave this parcel with someone other than them then does the recipient not have a case that UPS acted against the proper and outlined guidelines of this package. Their responsibility; precisely what they were hired to do, was deliver this package to the recipient and collect HIS signature. They do not have HIS signature which to me means their end of the contract was not fulfilled meaning the insurance provided on this shipment contract should still be in place. Again I could be wrong on this as again I do not work for a shipment/logistics company and if someone inside one of those companies has better knowledge please share.