Gray market suspicions confirmed

[JacksonRain]

Ummmm literally nothing new here. This has been going on for decades.

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[JDsnewwatch]

Originally Posted by whiskyrolex

You probably should have disclosed that this was for an Omega and not a Rolex in the original post.

Probably.. but if you think this isn't going on with Rolex as well, I have a little surprise for you.

[JDsnewwatch]

Originally Posted by Polar Bear

Why are you asking a Grey Dealer to source you a watch?
Why not go to an Omega AD yourself?
Its not a hot model, so i imagine a few phone calls would turn one up

If your Grey Dealer is quoting you less than retail on a BNIB model, why are you complaining?

Not complaining at all! I'm very happy with the price I got. This particular watch is difficult to find so ADs aren't throwing discounts at it.

[Chester01]

Originally Posted by shaunylw

If you mean that the only way grey dealers get stickered and unworn watches is directly from an AD as a buyer, no. That’s incorrect.

There are a high number of grey watches, brand new and unworn that are coming from folks buying at ADs and flipping them. How do i know? Because i have a buddy that does it and we use his AD to get whatever we want. At least 6-8 watches this year were sold to a dealer we work with. All stickered and unworn. They are not getting all of their watches from the AD.


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Lol. Then your friend is a gray dealer. Perhaps a small time dealer but if they are flipping for profit that’s what they are. You proved my point.


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[Chester01]

Originally Posted by sportsfan0704

This is just false. Many people put their names down for watches, the call comes in, they take the watch and sell it to the secondary seller at a profit. They keep the difference and buy what they like. To say it’s 100% your way or some other way is disingenuous.

It’s not false, did you read the OP post? That happened, sorry. It does not fit your ideas, but that does not make it false.

In your example, Yes they too are small time gray dealers. Thanks for proving my point. I’m not just talking about gray dealers that buy and sell say 100k per month, but all are lumped in there.


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[garyk]

Originally Posted by JDsnewwatch

LOL.. OK, its for a toooduur.. happy now?

Haha, very!

[Deppe]

Originally Posted by Chester01

It’s not false, did you read the OP post? That happened, sorry. It does not fit your ideas, but that does not make it false.

In your example, Yes they too are small time gray dealers. Thanks for proving my point. I’m not just talking about gray dealers that buy and sell say 100k per month, but all are lumped in there.


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Haha okay then, if we can just make up the definitions to suit our arguments then it is easy to debate.

“Gray dealers get their stickered watches from Rolex”
“Not true, I know people who buy the watches stickered from the AD and sells to the grays”
“Ah, but then the people you know are gray dealers as well.”

[Chester01]

Originally Posted by Deppe

Haha okay then, if we can just make up the definitions to suit our arguments then it is easy to debate.

“Gray dealers get their stickered watches from Rolex”
“Not true, I know people who buy the watches stickered from the AD and sells to the grays”
“Ah, but then the people you know are gray dealers as well.”

If people are just buying watches for the sole purpose to sell to other people at a profit what would you call it then?

Now, look at the volume of watches being sold by the massive gray dealers getting like 20+ daytonas each month? These are not all coming from the folks on the AD wait list for 6 years lol. There are more and more gray dealers every day and far more over the past 5 years. They start small, make money, roll that over into leverage at their AD to source the hot models and wham, you got a new gray dealer. Your just looking at small time folks saying well they are people and so don’t count. Yes, the larger gray dealers are large because they kept it up. If folks make a profit of course they will keep it up and the cycle continues.


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[sportsfan0704]

Originally Posted by Chester01

If people are just buying watches for the sole purpose to sell to other people at a profit what would you call it then?

Now, look at the volume of watches being sold by the massive gray dealers getting like 20+ daytonas each month? These are not all coming from the folks on the AD wait list for 6 years lol. There are more and more gray dealers every day and far more over the past 5 years. They start small, make money, roll that over into leverage at their AD to source the hot models and wham, you got a new gray dealer. Your just looking at small time folks saying well they are people and so don’t count. Yes, the larger gray dealers are large because they kept it up. If folks make a profit of course they will keep it up and the cycle continues.


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I would call them smart. Not a grey dealer. If I got a call about a watch tomorrow that I don’t really need or walked into a store and talked the AD into bringing something out of the back, outside of maybe 1-2 models I really love, I wouldn’t hesitate about selling it. Turning down free money is dumb. It makes me smart to do that, not a grey dealer. Squint all you want, you can’t force this definition of grey dealer to include anyone who sells watches after buying them from an AD, even if it’s just 1.

[JRell]

Originally Posted by Chester01

If people are just buying watches for the sole purpose to sell to other people at a profit what would you call it then?

Now, look at the volume of watches being sold by the massive gray dealers getting like 20+ daytonas each month? These are not all coming from the folks on the AD wait list for 6 years lol. There are more and more gray dealers every day and far more over the past 5 years. They start small, make money, roll that over into leverage at their AD to source the hot models and wham, you got a new gray dealer. Your just looking at small time folks saying well they are people and so don’t count. Yes, the larger gray dealers are large because they kept it up. If folks make a profit of course they will keep it up and the cycle continues.


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Flippers. If I were them I would put that time into finding a better job. They just feed the monster, messing it up for all of us. I get it is capitalism, but doesn’t make me think highly of them.

[Chester01]

Originally Posted by sportsfan0704

I would call them smart. Not a grey dealer. If I got a call about a watch tomorrow that I don’t really need or walked into a store and talked the AD into bringing something out of the back, outside of maybe 1-2 models I really love, I wouldn’t hesitate about selling it. Turning down free money is dumb. It makes me smart to do that, not a grey dealer. Squint all you want, you can’t force this definition of grey dealer to include anyone who sells watches after buying them from an AD, even if it’s just 1.

Selling products at a profit is conducting business. Think not, try slipping that past the IRS my friend didn’t think so. I never said it was not a good idea. If my AD called and said here is a gmt, I would sell it in a heartbeat. No interest in the 6 digit references. But the issue is semantics. The only difference between a “gray dealer” is what them selling a few more watches per month. Selling at a profit is conducting business.


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[Juan Luis]

I wonder how the warranty is handled with grey dealers. The card has to be registered with Rolex to someone, otherwise it is just a piece of plastic.

[SLWoodster]

Repeat.

[SLWoodster]

Seriously, get over it.

A grey dealer is a guy just like you who started buying way longer than you and buys way more than you and if the watch market price is above retail then he is likely buying above retail.

Volume discount, VIP treatment.

I know shops that sell to greys and then turn around and tell me it’s sold out.

Originally Posted by JDsnewwatch

I have been chasing after a particular watch for quite some time. I made a deal with a gray market seller in New York. I called in today to see how things were going with the purchase and I spoke to the manager. She told me that she was working on this purchase and she needed to get in touch with the AD.

You read that correctly. This gray market seller is getting my new watch from an AD. It's not even a secret, it's right out there. In this case, the price is better than retail. But, make no mistake, the ADs are on a first-name basis with the secondary market sellers.

There is no shortage, there are watches walking out the door to the highest payers. and $8,000 watch that commands $14,000 on the gray market is likely going for 9K behind the scenes. Everyone wins..

[JRell]

Originally Posted by SLWoodster

Seriously, get over it.

A grey dealer is a guy just like you who started buying way longer than you and buys way more than you and if the watch market price is above retail then he is likely buying above retail.

Volume discount, VIP treatment.

I know shops that sell to greys and then turn around and tell me it’s sold out.

If they are an AD, they could lose their ability to sell Rolex. I realize some shady dealers do it, but it frowned upon.

[sportsfan0704]

Originally Posted by Chester01

Selling products at a profit is conducting business. Think not, try slipping that past the IRS my friend didn’t think so. I never said it was not a good idea. If my AD called and said here is a gmt, I would sell it in a heartbeat. No interest in the 6 digit references. But the issue is semantics. The only difference between a “gray dealer” is what them selling a few more watches per month. Selling at a profit is conducting business.


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This is so absurd. There is a massive difference between the people who sell a watch or two a year for hobby and people who run a business taking in hundreds of watches a year and sending out just as many. By your definition, every single seller in the classifieds here is a grey dealer. That’s just nonsense. The irs has nothing to do with whether someone is a grey dealer or not.

[Maxy]

Originally Posted by ks58

Wrong spot for an Omega post. This shouldn't be in the Rolex forum.

Why not? He's paying Rolex prices for Omega watch.. so I think it's valid here!

[powerfunk]

Originally Posted by JDsnewwatch

There is no shortage

Relative to demand? Yes, there is.

Originally Posted by JDsnewwatch

there are watches walking out the door to the highest payers.

Why are they doing that? Because market price is over MSRP. Which is indicative of a shortage. There is not enough supply to make the market price go below MSRP. It's nothing but supply and demand. All the shenanigans people complain about are a result of supply and demand, period.

If all 7 billion people needed to leave the planet on a rocket, well, we wouldn't have enough rockets. Would you say "there's no shortage of rocketships" just because Jeff Bezos can go buy one? I wouldn't.

[m j b]

Wow, you guys sure do get your panties all wadded up on this topic.

LOL

I still don't understand why an Omega purchase is in the Roll-x and too-door forum.

[teck21]

Originally Posted by powerfunk

Relative to demand? Yes, there is.



Why are they doing that? Because market price is over MSRP. Which is indicative of a shortage. There is not enough supply to make the market price go below MSRP. It's nothing but supply and demand. All the shenanigans people complain about are a result of supply and demand, period.

If all 7 billion people needed to leave the planet on a rocket, well, we wouldn't have enough rockets. Would you say "there's no shortage of rocketships" just because Jeff Bezos can go buy one? I wouldn't.

but common sense goes out the window when emotions come into play.

Or worse if emotions aren’t at work!


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[shaunylw]

Originally Posted by Chester01

It’s not false, did you read the OP post? That happened, sorry. It does not fit your ideas, but that does not make it false.

In your example, Yes they too are small time gray dealers. Thanks for proving my point. I’m not just talking about gray dealers that buy and sell say 100k per month, but all are lumped in there.


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You’re not even in the ballpark of being correct. So every person that has ever bought a watch from an AD and sold it, is a small time grey dealer in your estimation? If you sell 100k per month as a grey dealer, you’re in fact extremely small.


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[shaunylw]

Originally Posted by JRell

If they are an AD, they could lose their ability to sell Rolex. I realize some shady dealers do it, but it frowned upon.

Agreed, but Rolex wasn’t complaining 10 years ago when this type of selling kept their ADs moving through product. I honestly don’t think they want to do anything. It’s a bad look for the brand but look at what has happened. People are buying OPs for almost 2.5x retail, it’s crazy.


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[AJMarcus]

Originally Posted by Bizcut1

"I'm shocked...shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!"

“Round up the usual suspects.”

[Chester01]

Originally Posted by shaunylw

You’re not even in the ballpark of being correct. So every person that has ever bought a watch from an AD and sold it, is a small time grey dealer in your estimation? If you sell 100k per month as a grey dealer, you’re in fact extremely small.


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So if someone buys a watch, with the sole intent of selling it at a profit then yes. Same with any goods or services. They may not like the label but it’s creating the demand issues everyone here is facing. I mean if they do it once and never again, I would not call them a grey dealer per se, but more and more gray dealers setting up shop all the time.

If you define it differently then what’s the definition ,1k profit once per year, 10k per month? That’s a slippery slope.

10 years ago there were very few gray dealers now how many? Growing every day eh? You bet. If someone sells, makes money and does that again and again, now you have a “legit” gray dealer.


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[Rado63]

There was a time when all those secondary market dealers had AD contacts. Today you just need a consumer to be a well known buyer over the counter and resell to the secondary market dealer. Nothing has changed because it goes out the front door in bundles. It will be interesting to see if Rolex can somehow control this three watch per year rule. Unfortunately I doubt it, and I don't see this rule effecting total sales to Rolex or the AD because they AD will dictate what three watches you can buy. So if you want a GMT Pepsi then you will be shown your three pieces, buy full PM Skydweller, and a DJ31 diamond dial diamond bezel , plus your pepsi, and that's your three. The same buyers will buy the three packs and sell them to the secondary market. Again there will be no change.

[Chester01]

Originally Posted by sportsfan0704

This is so absurd. There is a massive difference between the people who sell a watch or two a year for hobby and people who run a business taking in hundreds of watches a year and sending out just as many. By your definition, every single seller in the classifieds here is a grey dealer. That’s just nonsense. The irs has nothing to do with whether someone is a grey dealer or not.

The only difference is success my friend. The same difference between Amazon and the thousands of start ups that fail each year.


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[sportsfan0704]

Originally Posted by Chester01

The only difference is success my friend. The same difference between Amazon and the thousands of start ups that fail each year.


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You’re undermining the premise of your entire argument. Nobody equates Amazon with someone who opens an llc that nobody ever hears about because it fails. If I buy a watch solely to sell it and make a quick profit, I am not a “dealer” by any means. People here don’t even use the term grey market correctly since it really refers to watches taken out of the normal distribution network when that’s not what the vast vast vast majority if Not all rolexes today are. Almost all if not all rolexes come directly from AD, they’re not getting taken off the backs of trucks. You’re just ignoring the middle men who buy the watches and sell them to the secondary sellers and painting anyone whose involved in reselling as a “grey dealer” whether they sell 1 or 100000 watches. It’s really a secondary market. Nobody calls stores like flight club or stadium goods grey dealers because they resell limited sneakers. And to take it one step further, there’s a big difference between someone who resells a couple of limited releases a year and someone who opens their own small sneaker store with hundreds of shoes coming in and out a year. If you think all these people are the same, I don’t know what to tell you.

[Quinny1999]

I think there are plenty of grey dealers that have this relationship, they will take the DJ's and everything else that the AD gets plenty of, to then also get their hands on the Daytona's etc.

Nothing new unfortunately..... :(

[Chester01]

Originally Posted by sportsfan0704

You’re undermining the premise of your entire argument. Nobody equates Amazon with someone who opens an llc that nobody ever hears about because it fails. If I buy a watch solely to sell it and make a quick profit, I am not a “dealer” by any means. People here don’t even use the term grey market correctly since it really refers to watches taken out of the normal distribution network when that’s not what the vast vast vast majority if Not all rolexes today are. Almost all if not all rolexes come directly from AD, they’re not getting taken off the backs of trucks. You’re just ignoring the middle men who buy the watches and sell them to the secondary sellers and painting anyone whose involved in reselling as a “grey dealer” whether they sell 1 or 100000 watches. It’s really a secondary market. Nobody calls stores like flight club or stadium goods grey dealers because they resell limited sneakers.

No read, carefully. There are varying degrees of success from the DSW’s to the dude that gets 1-2 stainless models and flips them at a profit. One does not need a formal llc to make money my friend.


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[sportsfan0704]

Originally Posted by Chester01

No read, carefully. There are varying degrees of success from the DSW’s to the dude that gets 1-2 stainless models and flips them at a profit. One does not need a formal llc to make money my friend.


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So again, your argument boils down to “anyone who makes a penny reselling a watch is a grey dealer.” That’s ridiculous.