Bought Rolex but received Empty Box--HELP

[freefly]

Originally Posted by CorradoBrit

You didn;t read the entire thread. Seller posted one response. Think its page 2.

Yeah, same page (post #49) that I previously brought up the package weight discrepancy issue, and gave the approx. weight of a GMT IIc, lol.

Anyway, I'll just add one more tid-bit:

Packing tape is great at retaining fingerprints. Latent prints on the "sticky" side cannot be wiped off or smudged, and are effectively "preserved" by the nature of the material/application. So, if the package was re-taped after being pilfered, then the thief's prints will likely be on the underside of the top-most layer(s) of tape. Many times no additional processing (dusting) is needed. Just need to have the PD's lab photo/scan them in. Then obtain sets of elimination prints from all parties.
If anyone refuses, big red flag. Also, if the extra tape layers on the box are damaged/removed in the meantime, that would be a big red flag against the buyer.

[Yobber76]

I have read most of this thread, and I'm not trying to blame anyone, but it struck me that I was having a conversation with an AD about 3-4 weeks ago and he brought up this exact scenario as the reason to buy from AD's vs the grey market.
His main point was that once you wire your money, and this happens, the seller has all the rights to pursue any insurance claim, and the buyer has no power to pursue the shipping company, since the buyer did not contract nor pay the shipping source. Often times, the buyer doesn't really get a receipt, with proper serial numbers, etc, making it even harder to pursue.
It just seemed odd to see his scenario so quickly, does this happen often?

[Paul_I]

AD every time, no exceptions. Piece of mind alone is worth passing on the TRF discount.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by Paul_I

AD every time, no exceptions. Piece of mind alone is worth passing on the TRF discount.

ESPECIALLY when it’s the exact same price as from an AD, on a current model

[haven_seeker]

Originally Posted by dmash

We’re speculating harder in this thread than we do with Rolex supply/value in the main forum.

I'm not *new* to the world of online buying selling (someone up in around page 2 mentioned Magic cards - I have a lot of experience with those ) but this thread is a bit scary.

What normal, reasonable, steps should a seller take when packaging an item of value and sending it off to a stranger? Personally I never would have thought of using brown tape, and/or signing said tape as a personal "seal" to guarantee tamper resistance. The postal system, although not perfect, should provide levels of protection, at least to a degree where fraud like this is not allowed to occur. Someone mentioned all the CCTV footage - they have a good point there, the answers may lie in a UPS store.

The weight discrepancies are startling. I know in Canada, CP (our equal to USPS) weighs and measures the dimensions of the package directly in front of you and enters it - the shipper has no say in the matter. With the item on the scale, sealed, and packaged, only then is a weight prescribed and a method of shipment chosen, with a label subsequently printed/completed.

If it was entered as under 2 pounds, liability may fall with the seller for all of the reasons people have mentioned prior. It would be incumbent on them to issue a refund (or at the very least, as previously suggested, perhaps a partial refund) until the issue is completely resolved. I think this is reasonable, because of all the scenarios explored already (seller forgot to send watch, UPS employee pocketed watch, seller maliciously did not send watch, etc) pretty much one thing is guaranteed here: the buyer is not getting the watch.

The seller did respond early on to the thread, but then seemed to imply that he'll have no further involvement in the conversation going forward. Let's bring that back to the front for people TLDR'ing:

Originally Posted by william21

Hello TRF--

Yes, I am the seller in this transaction. I recently listed my Rolex GMT Master II for sale after purchasing it in 2016 from a prominent seller on TRF. Helo008 and I exchanged several correspondences and spoke over the phone. Although he had not been on TRF for very long and had 0 posts previously, I felt comfortable after verifying his employment/educational status and identity. To be honest, I've participated in several transactions (primarily in person and via eBay) and this was my first transaction as seller on TRF.

The transaction moved forward and he processed a direct bank wire very quickly (thus, alleviating some concerns there). I utilized my local UPS Store and had them insure it for the watch's value. The counter staff did not see the watch but confirmed its make/model upon receipt. When I asked the franchisee owner if that was routine, she said that it was and is required to insure that amount. The box was taped, packaged and scanned on the spot. The weight was 1 lbs. 15.5 oz. I sent the tracking number immediately.

Unfortunately, after he mentioned that he would have his apartment building staff sign for it in case he wasn't there, I offered to meet halfway in person (i.e. Modesto). He did not think it was necessary and we agreed to move forward with shipping it. When I was contacted with images and a phone call that the watch was missing, I suggested that he contact local authorities ASAP (which he did). In fact, before I had a chance to speak with him and the Officer on the case, I contacted Emeryville Police Department directly myself, not knowing the Buyer personally and unsure if this could be fraudulent on that end. Shortly after that, I was able to jump on the phone with him and the officer assigned to the case. I subsequently filed a report with my local police department as well a claim with UPS.

I've maintained contact with him and am engaging UPS to investigate this immediately. After receiving advice from his attorney, he requested a full refund. I intend to let the process and investigation play out (both through PD for stolen property as well as UPS). I have also enlisted the services of an attorney as well. I will say, he has offered to be patient as the UPS claims process plays out, so that is greatly appreciated.

I am really hopeful that everything works out and UPS is on the hook. I probably won't engage back and forth beyond this point, but I appreciate the comments, suggestions, and empathy shared by TRF. I also posted a thread in case anyone has had any questionable experiences with the buyer in the past (hate to do it, but you just don't know). It's a very upsetting situation for me as it is for him.

Oy, my head hurts just trying to process all of this.

[dmash]

This is another reason I prefer USPS to be honest. The fact that’s it’s federal, does seem to deter some scamming activity....by buyers/sellers as long as employees. It’s not a failsafe, but it’s kind of like blatantly displaying signs that ou have an alarm system. Anything helps...

[kingSubTT]

Originally Posted by dmash

This is another reason I prefer USPS to be honest. The fact that’s it’s federal, does seem to deter some scamming activity....by buyers/sellers as long as employees. It’s not a failsafe, but it’s kind of like blatantly displaying signs that ou have an alarm system. Anything helps...

There is a reason Rolex service center only uses USPS registered mail (Period)

[037]

Originally Posted by kingSubTT

There is a reason Rolex service center only uses USPS registered mail (Period)

Apparently they use FedEx as well now. A few members have reported outgoing packages from RSC shipping via FedEx.

So, pretty much anyone but UPS.

[cht]

Originally Posted by dmash

This is another reason I prefer USPS to be honest. The fact that’s it’s federal, does seem to deter some scamming activity....by buyers/sellers as long as employees. It’s not a failsafe, but it’s kind of like blatantly displaying signs that ou have an alarm system. Anything helps...

Originally Posted by kingSubTT

There is a reason Rolex service center only uses USPS registered mail (Period)

You guys realize though that USPS will NOT allow you to photograph NOR video record anything in a USPS building, so, you can't show photographic proof what you packaged up and handed to an employee.


I tried this very thing and they said no way, against the law on federal property.

[kingSubTT]

Originally Posted by cht

You guys realize though that USPS will NOT allow you to photograph NOR video record anything in a USPS building, so, you can't show photographic proof what you packaged up and handed to an employee.


I tried this very thing and they said no way, against the law on federal property.

Noone will ever get their watched serviced at RSC if there was an issue with USPS is registered.

[GoingPlaces]

Originally Posted by dmash

This is another reason I prefer USPS to be honest. The fact that’s it’s federal, does seem to deter some scamming activity....by buyers/sellers as long as employees. It’s not a failsafe, but it’s kind of like blatantly displaying signs that ou have an alarm system. Anything helps...

This. Evidently for registered there is a record or log that keeps track along the way of everyone that handles it. It’s the slowest but safest method to my understanding. I use this whenever sending anything of value.



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[MinMay]

In the end, the 9K question....

Who is responsible for the 9K? SELLER or BUYER?

If the BUYER did everything righteously and he doesn't get his money back, then that's messed up. I can't imagine any BUYER going to wire money for a watch if SELLER holds no responsibility. Isn't that why the price includes INSURANCE to cover the SELLER since BUYER can not make a claim? Can you imagine if SELLER starts to say "I sent you a box (with or without a watch) with tracking information..and it's not my problem anymore?"

[037]

Originally Posted by MinMay

In the end, the 9K question....

Who is responsible for the 9K? SELLER or BUYER?

If the BUYER did everything righteously and he doesn't get his money back, then that's messed up. I can't imagine any BUYER going to wire money for a watch if SELLER holds no responsibility. Isn't that why the price includes INSURANCE to cover the SELLER since BUYER can not make a claim? Can you imagine if SELLER starts to say "I sent you a box (with or without a watch) with tracking information..and it's not my problem anymore?"

Well, it's still day one. No insurance company pays out in milliseconds. It's far too soon to make a call on this one.

To answer your first question, the seller is responsible for collecting insurance. How long that will take is unknown. Whether the buyer is getting scammed is unknown. Whether the seller is scamming the seller is unknown. Whether or not the shipper (UPS Store), courier (UPS) or recipient (apartment complex) stole the watch is unknown.

There are a lot of unknowns and very little known.

Panicking over buying or selling won't help.

[CorradoBrit]

Originally Posted by 037

Well, it's still day one. No insurance company pays out in milliseconds. It's far too soon to make a call on this one.

To answer your first question, the seller is responsible for collecting insurance. How long that will take is unknown. Whether the buyer is getting scammed is unknown. Whether the seller is scamming the seller is unknown. Whether or not the shipper (UPS Store), courier (UPS) or recipient (apartment complex) stole the watch is unknown.

There are a lot of unknowns and very little known.

Panicking over buying or selling won't help.

I think he's assuming UPS insurance will deny the claim. If thats the case it will be the Courts who will decide, but who is the plaintiff and who is the defendant is unclear at this moment.
OP, what did your attorney advise?

Trusted/established seller with 10's or 100's of successful transactions, AD or face-to-face is the only option for me moving forward. This has been an eyeopener and just illustrates the many pitfalls in the whole process of buying and selling watches.

[MinMay]

Originally Posted by 037

Well, it's still day one. No insurance company pays out in milliseconds. It's far too soon to make a call on this one.

To answer your first question, the seller is responsible for collecting insurance. How long that will take is unknown. Whether the buyer is getting scammed is unknown. Whether the seller is scamming the seller is unknown. Whether or not the shipper (UPS Store), courier (UPS) or recipient (apartment complex) stole the watch is unknown.

There are a lot of unknowns and very little known.

Panicking over buying or selling won't help.

What if... :)

UPS and Insurance denied the claim?

We do know the weight is about the same 2 pounds after UPS store scan the package and BUYER receiving it. Now, what happen between the SELLER and UPS packaging the box. It should lead us to the missing watch.

[MinMay]

Originally Posted by CorradoBrit

I think he's assuming UPS insurance will deny the claim. If thats the case it will be the Courts who will decide, but who is the plaintiff and who is the defendant is unclear at this moment.
OP, what did your attorney advise?

Trusted/established seller with 10's or 100's of successful transactions, AD or face-to-face is the only option for me moving forward. This has been an eyeopener and just illustrates the many pitfalls in the whole process of buying and selling watches.

I agree with you.

[AbsolutelyROLEX!]

Hey guys, I have shipped around 700 rolexes all over the world, mostly to US.
Always use USPS, not a single loss
I ship them in used auto parts boxes, put the return address as my Auto Repair shop, on the customs form I always put" precision Auto Instrument" returned for warranty/repair.
Value at $100
Fully insure the package with Parcelpro.
Hopefully this helps a few of you out.
When you ship high value items, you have to be as deceitful as you can, with the entire process.
Use your imagination, it works, I speak from experience....

AND FOR THOSE OF YOU WONDERING, PARCELPRO FULLY SUPPORTS SHIPPING THIS WAY

[helo008]

Originally Posted by Yobber76

I have read most of this thread, and I'm not trying to blame anyone, but it struck me that I was having a conversation with an AD about 3-4 weeks ago and he brought up this exact scenario as the reason to buy from AD's vs the grey market.
His main point was that once you wire your money, and this happens, the seller has all the rights to pursue any insurance claim, and the buyer has no power to pursue the shipping company, since the buyer did not contract nor pay the shipping source. Often times, the buyer doesn't really get a receipt, with proper serial numbers, etc, making it even harder to pursue.
It just seemed odd to see his scenario so quickly, does this happen often?

Yobber, after this experience I am 1000% sold on buying from ADs. The most frustrating thing is I probably could have paid a few hundred dollars more to do the transaction through a credit card and remained protected, which in hindsight would have been completely worth it to avoid all of this worry and uncertainty.

While a lot of people are saying that we should let the UPS claims process play out, it does suck to be sitting here with an empty box and be out a pretty huge chunk of money after doing everything above board. While the seller may be in a bad position too, at least he at this point has not suffered any monetary loss as he is still in possession of the funds from the transaction. The opportunity to get rid of the worry of never getting my money back is worth any premium a future AD charges me.

[CorradoBrit]

Originally Posted by MinMay

We do know the weight is about the same 2 pounds after UPS store scan the package and BUYER receiving it. Now, what happen between the SELLER and UPS packaging the box. It should lead us to the missing watch.

Unless the watch was never in the box in the first place. We don't know if UPS saw the contents of the Rolex box before it was handed over for packaging and weighing.

[GoingPlaces]

Unfortunately there is always risk in buying from a non-AD, and that risk usually falls on the buyer. If you want to eliminate that risk, buy from an AD and walk out the door with it.

[CorradoBrit]

Originally Posted by helo008

\While the seller may be in a bad position too, at least he at this point has not suffered any monetary loss as he is still in possession of the funds from the transaction.

And there lies the crux of the problem. Seller has little incentive and holds ALL the cards. He has the cash (thanks to the wire transfer), does not have to answer to any funding or financial intermediary, has the contract with the shipper and can just sit back and wait to see how things unfold.

I don't own a Rolex and probably never will (not my style) but I think its interesting how their manipulation of the market is forcing buyers to adopt risky buying tactics to acquire the watch of their dreams. Take your chances on the open market or wait months to years for an AD to offer you one (thinking steel sports and Daytona's, which I assume are their most popular models and hardest to find in dealers inventory, at least if you're a walk-in). Tough choice for some I know.

[helo008]

Originally Posted by CorradoBrit

Unless the watch was never in the box in the first place. We don't know if UPS saw the contents of the Rolex box before it was handed over for packaging and weighing.

Unfortunately, the counter staff did not see the watch, as confirmed to me by the seller and in his previous post:

Originally Posted by william21

The transaction moved forward and he processed a direct bank wire very quickly (thus, alleviating some concerns there). I utilized my local UPS Store and had them insure it for the watch's value. The counter staff did not see the watch but confirmed its make/model upon receipt. When I asked the franchisee owner if that was routine, she said that it was and is required to insure that amount. The box was taped, packaged and scanned on the spot. The weight was 1 lbs. 15.5 oz. I sent the tracking number immediately

[tudorbaja27]

Originally Posted by 037

lol... that's about where we're at.


The UPS Store worker could have had his or her finger under the scale to reduce the weight, knowing they'd swipe the watch once the patron left.

Hey, it's a mystery novel...

Originally Posted by AbsolutelyROLEX!

Hey guys, I have shipped around 700 rolexes all over the world, mostly to US.
Always use USPS, not a single loss
I ship them in used auto parts boxes, put the return address as my Auto Repair shop, on the customs form I always put" precision Auto Instrument" returned for warranty/repair.
Value at $100
Fully insure the package with Parcelpro.
Hopefully this helps a few of you out.
When you ship high value items, you have to be as deceitful as you can, with the entire process.
Use your imagination, it works, I speak from experience....

AND FOR THOSE OF YOU WONDERING, PARCELPRO FULLY SUPPORTS SHIPPING THIS WAY

Smart man. Hope the situation gets resolved soon for all involved parties. To me it smell like theft by an UPS employee - but that's just my gut feeling.

[Al1969]

Originally Posted by helo008

Unfortunately, the counter staff did not see the watch, as confirmed to me by the seller and in his previous post:

How were they able to “comfirm” the watch without seeing it? And why did they need to?

Helo008, Were You given an explanation by the seller?

Hope this gets resolved for all parties involved.

[helo008]

Originally Posted by Al1969

How and why did they need to “comfirm” the watch without seeing it?

Helo008, Were You given an explanation by the seller?

Hope this gets resolved for all parties involved.

I'm not sure why they needed the specific information for the watch as on the copy of the shipping receipt I received from the seller, the description simply says "rolex"(sic). Again, hard for me to say as I wasn't there.

The seller has stated that he is entirely sure of packing the watch into the box and drove it straight to the UPS store directly after. Other than that, no explanation was made, but he is pursuing claims with UPS. I have requested that he issue me a refund because I did not receive the item I paid for but he has refused to do so.

Thanks for the good wishes. I hope this gets resolved soon too.

[usrudiver932]

Keep the white box and handle as little a possible Incase Police want to print or if u wish to offer it up for further investigation ie: UPS crook

[Razorsedge1]

What a mess. I'm sure there are some good sellers on this site, but I would not buy an expensive watch from a non AD seller unless it was face to face. Best of luck getting your money back.

[kingSubTT]

I doubt police will do anything. Ups will most likely deny the claim. They is no way UPS can be held responsible. Only thing in buyer’s favor is the weight that he can use to win in court. Even that is not an air tight case. Judge may or may not consider 5 oz.

I just bought a PM watch from a top seller last week. I flew there, cost me $700 in air fare and $100 for rental car. It was a face to face fun trip with watch on my wrist on returning flight.

[roaddog359]

Originally Posted by TAKUYA

Same thing happened with my shipments last year with ups. So this is my story and experiences. Hope it helps...

My worker shipped 5 packages out that day to my clients. 2 (highest values of 5) dropped off at UPS Store who knows us well, another 2 dropped off at FedEx who knows us well too, and last one dropped off at random UPS store. Why? Because I don't usually ship all packages out at one location.

Next day, 2 packages shipped by FedEx which were delivered safe and sound. Also the last package dropped off at random ups store which was delivered safe and sound as well. So lil concerned here about another 2 packages got delay which were dropped off at ups we know well... around after noon, 1st client in East Coast of one of those 2 packages called me and said there is no watch, just the box and watch boxes inside while the package still looks good from outside.. and an hour later 2nd client in West Coast called me and said the same thing with the same happen.... and until now I still don't know when and where those items got stolen.. at ups store, ups hub or at ups destination...?

Here are how I worked on it. Those 2 clients are my new clients so of course they definitely thought I may be a scammer at that moment. But first I tried to calm them down and showed them that the packages have full insurance and showed them that I'm working with insurance company and UPS to see what happened with the packages first. And I also guaranteed them that they will receive their full refunds within a few days after I hear back from insurance company and ups even the insurance company will take over 30 days for investigation and refunds to the sender... then next thing I needed my clients take a lot of the pics of the packages after they received and opened it. And also if they can tell me or estimate how the weight of the package when driver handed the package to them and do not throw anything from what they received. because the insurance company needed those packages in that exact condition send back to them for investigation. my worker kept the dropoff receipts of those 2 packages and took the pics of them before he shipped. Because on drop off receipt it will show what the weights of each package. So the package will be lighter if the item inside got stolen. And The tracking numbers will show the actual weight of package when driver scans it and hands it to the receiver. Then from there ups and insurance can know what happened with it... Another good thing helped me to get the cover from insurance that I always use brown paper tapes all around for packages. So when they received those packages back from my clients they could see someone cut the brown paper tape and tampered with clear tape over it. And of course I could not let my 2 clients hang there and wait 30 days for insurance decision. So one client understood and waited for me to find him another item or waited until we know the decision from insurance company. And If its not right, then both of us will find lawyer and give this case to lawyer to sue UPS. Another client (who became my regular client now) could not wait for another item or decision from insurance company, so I totally understood that and had to give him full refunds back. So in this case, the seller needs to deal with shipping company and insurance company if the item got stolen within the shipment like my case. But of course it needs lil helps from buyer as working with seller and be patient...

Also another thing that do not let ups or FedEx worker pack up your valuable package or let them know what inside the package. Especially with UPS since UPS is franchise so they can not really know much about their workers like Fedex.

Handled a much better way! This would be someone I would buy from. However I still will say never Bank Wire money, you have not recourse. Better to use a Credit Card even if the seller tries to get you to pay fees. I would rather pay 3% more knowing I have some recourse in the event the deal goes south. Why bank wire money to only give the seller all the protection, control and money and nothing for yourself is foolish in my opinion. I dont care how trusted the seller is. Good luck but I think the fishy smell is coming from the sellers end more than the buyers.

[77T]

Originally Posted by AbsolutelyROLEX!

Hey guys, I have shipped around 700 rolexes all over the world, mostly to US.
Always use USPS, not a single loss
I ship them in used auto parts boxes, put the return address as my Auto Repair shop, on the customs form I always put" precision Auto Instrument" returned for warranty/repair.
Value at $100
Fully insure the package with Parcelpro.
Hopefully this helps a few of you out.
When you ship high value items, you have to be as deceitful as you can, with the entire process.
Use your imagination, it works, I speak from experience....

AND FOR THOSE OF YOU WONDERING, PARCELPRO FULLY SUPPORTS SHIPPING THIS WAY

Isn’t that a violation of 18 U.S. Code § 542 - Entry of goods by means of false statements?


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