terminology help

[greekbum]

Are there any guidelines to use when describing a watch to somebody ?
This week I had a fellow collector show me a watch that he recently bought. He believes he bought a NOS 40 plus year old watch. It was in great condition but not NOS by any definition I know. He asked me my opinion and when I pointed out to him my observations of the case polishing, service marks inside the case back, etc he got offended and told me its NOS. I was at a loss for words….. I thought to myself with all this confusion in terminology recently are there clear definitions or guidelines that we have or should follow when using certain words as collectors,dealers or enthusiasts ? Below are some of the words I see often describing a watch or a part. I may have left a few out but does anybody care to define them ?
Mint (means like new and flawless)
Unpolished (NEVER Polished since it was manufactured)
NOS (A Watch or Part that was manufactured long ago but that has never been used or sold retail.)
Rare (Something hardly ever seen)
Tropical (A dial that has turned brown for various reasons) not water etc.
Original (Original to the watch when it was manufactured or original Rolex part)
Serviced (A Rolex service, independent etc needs to be clear)

[toph]

haha its a bit of a joke, some of these are redundant in my opinion and translate to me as:
Mint ... good condition ( usually)
Unpolished.. not polished much and not in a while.. ;) or i havn't had it polished so i will claim ignorance
NOS.. sitting in a box for 10+ years
Rare.. that can be anything
Tropical.. dial is in terrible condition or looks brown at ONE certain angle
Original.. all rolex, but insert dial hands etc may have been replaced;)
Serviced .. serviced

[cruvon]

Hi Nikos, am sure you would know much better but here are rookie layman definitions of what I would expect when I buy a watch with those descriptions

Mint: In excellent condition, no blemishes, excellent dial 100% and rest in 99%+ condition, can be polished or never polished.
Unpolished: Never been polished after left the factory. But some use "unpolished" and "never polished" as 2 different terms with different meanings which causes a lot of confusion.
NOS: In the same condition as it left the factory when new, never used, I would expect all paperwork in pristine condition too.
Rare: Not easily obtainable due to low production numbers or high demand
Tropical: Guess there are two types of tropical,
1) ones that are tropical because of a defect in the paint but otherwise have a blemish free dial
2) A definition for tropical incorrectly used by some to glorify damaged dials, for example water damaged ones
Original: Think there are two types of original watches,
1) a watch with everything original to it as was sold when new
2) A watch that has period correct original parts replaced later on
I would guess would be extremely difficult even for the experts to identify between the two unless one was the original owner, but if there is someway to tell I would love to know.
Serviced: A watch that could have had
1) only a movement service and asked to keep everything else original
&/OR
2) parts replaced with service replacements unless specified not to
&
3) Polished unless asked to be kept as is

Cheers

[Duc5150]

I sort of chuckle when it comes to descriptions...all I can say is thank god for F2F deals and no questions asked return policies...

[eparisini]

Nikos this is NOS

[dysondiver]

wow ,,, more fantastic pics , im going to have to buy a spare hard drive to store pics on if they keep turning up at that quality.
nice watch too.

[Orchi]

Err Buddy Nikos...Orchi concurs...

Especially so...
when watches or parts are being way overly described...
(NOT in terms of the words count...that is)
whilst on the other hand...the all important descriptions detailing...
the flaws or imperfections or non-originality issues...
that might exist on the watches or its parts...
would very often be "overlooked" or "avoided" or "understated"...or "hidden"...
or even in the worst case...NOT been mentioned n disclosed at all...

Quite often when complaints or doubts were raised openly...
the complainant or OP would be slapped with negative remarks...
from others...like they would say...
"The Seller clearly states a Return/Refund Policy...what's the beef all about...?"

Sigh...

[greekbum]

Originally Posted by Orchi

Quite often when complaints or doubts were raised openly...
the complainant or OP would be slapped with negative remarks...
from others...like they would say...
"The Seller clearly states a Return/Refund Policy...what's the beef all about...?"
Sigh...

A refund policy is a refund policy and false statement, claim or advertisement is diferent
I see reputable dealers advertising *unpolished watches* 1 after the other and they don't have a nick or a scratch even after 40 years and numerous service marks inside the case back...
Clearly defective dials described as MINT etc
I am all for the sales corner to have stated definitions on a few Buzzwords if 1 chooses to use them it should be exactly that or don't mention it. Last I looked a picture tells a story better than words.

[Beaumont Miller II]

Nikos I can appreciate the situation you were in recently. No matter how delicately one is informed, no one wants to hear that their watch is not in NOS, mint, or exellent conditon.
Part of the problem is what you have pointed out, that some people apply these terms: mint, excellent, original etc. differently than others. The other problem I believe is perhaps the relative importance one places on one definition versus the other.
I think at the heart of the issue is this: our hobby/passion may be evolving and maturing, placing much more emphasis on the watch case than in the past. In the past the wisdom was, "the money is in the dial." That may be still true on some watches; however, I believe the current trend is to find watches with cases in great condition as well. If some are not convinced, consider this. The following is a list of adjectives to describe watch cases that I frequently read: NOS, excellent, mint, never polished, unpolished, over polished, fat, thick, thin, and sharp. Also consider the importance some place on factory camfers. Some, including me, did not know the difference between a bevel and a camfer... not so any more.
For me a NOS watch is just that. It should look like it just came from the dealer and was put in a safe without a scratch. If the watch was worn for a few months with normal signs of wear, it might be described as mint or excellent. If this watch was worn for 10 years with normal signs of use with nothing replaced it would be in original unpolished condition. Here is where I believe the confusion starts. Now if the watch was sent in for service three or four times and was polished during each service, how should we describe this watch now? The subjective terms used to describe this watch in the present condition are probably determined by how desirable the owner/seller feels it is relative to one that has never been polished. Is the watch that is polished that looks new and without scratches more desirable than one that has never been polished but with signs of wear? I guess each person has to answer that question for themselves. For some, this watch, by polishing it, might have been restored to mint/excellent condition while others may feel it is a a bit over polished. As things evolve, I think we will find that the importance of about six or seven good photographs are more important than subjective descriptions. Just my take on things.

[Frogman4me]

Originally Posted by Beaumont Miller II

Nikos I can appreciate the situation you were in recently. No matter how delicately one is informed, no one wants to hear that their watch is not in NOS, mint, or exellent conditon.
Part of the problem is what you have pointed out, that some people apply these terms: mint, excellent, original etc. differently than others. The other problem I believe is perhaps the relative importance one places on one definition versus the other.
I think at the heart of the issue is this: our hobby/passion may be evolving and maturing, placing much more emphasis on the watch case than in the past. In the past the wisdom was, "the money is in the dial." That may be still true on some watches; however, I believe the current trend is to find watches with cases in great condition as well. If some are not convinced, consider this. The following is a list of adjectives to describe watch cases that I frequently read: NOS, excellent, mint, never polished, unpolished, over polished, fat, thick, thin, and sharp. Also consider the importance some place on factory camfers. Some, including me, did not know the difference between a bevel and a camfer... not so any more.
For me a NOS watch is just that. It should look like it just came from the dealer and was put in a safe without a scratch. If the watch was worn for a few months with normal signs of wear, it might be described as mint or excellent. If this watch was worn for 10 years with normal signs of use with nothing replaced it would be in original unpolished condition. Here is where I believe the confusion starts. Now if the watch was sent in for service three or four times and was polished during each service, how should we describe this watch now? The subjective terms used to describe this watch in the present condition are probably determined by how desirable the owner/seller feels it is relative to one that has never been polished. Is the watch that is polished that looks new and without scratches more desirable than one that has never been polished but with signs of wear? I guess each person has to answer that question for themselves. For some, this watch, by polishing it, might have been restored to mint/excellent condition while others may feel it is a a bit over polished. As things evolve, I think we will find that the importance of about six or seven good photographs are more important than subjective descriptions. Just my take on things.

Well said John.

[hennabav]

Originally Posted by Beaumont Miller II

Nikos I can appreciate the situation you were in recently. No matter how delicately one is informed, no one wants to hear that their watch is not in NOS, mint, or exellent conditon.
Part of the problem is what you have pointed out, that some people apply these terms: mint, excellent, original etc. differently than others. The other problem I believe is perhaps the relative importance one places on one definition versus the other.
I think at the heart of the issue is this: our hobby/passion may be evolving and maturing, placing much more emphasis on the watch case than in the past. In the past the wisdom was, "the money is in the dial." That may be still true on some watches; however, I believe the current trend is to find watches with cases in great condition as well. If some are not convinced, consider this. The following is a list of adjectives to describe watch cases that I frequently read: NOS, excellent, mint, never polished, unpolished, over polished, fat, thick, thin, and sharp. Also consider the importance some place on factory camfers. Some, including me, did not know the difference between a bevel and a camfer... not so any more.
For me a NOS watch is just that. It should look like it just came from the dealer and was put in a safe without a scratch. If the watch was worn for a few months with normal signs of wear, it might be described as mint or excellent. If this watch was worn for 10 years with normal signs of use with nothing replaced it would be in original unpolished condition. Here is where I believe the confusion starts. Now if the watch was sent in for service three or four times and was polished during each service, how should we describe this watch now? The subjective terms used to describe this watch in the present condition are probably determined by how desirable the owner/seller feels it is relative to one that has never been polished. Is the watch that is polished that looks new and without scratches more desirable than one that has never been polished but with signs of wear? I guess each person has to answer that question for themselves. For some, this watch, by polishing it, might have been restored to mint/excellent condition while others may feel it is a a bit over polished. As things evolve, I think we will find that the importance of about six or seven good photographs are more important than subjective descriptions. Just my take on things.

I would say condition wise it is in excellent or mint condition depending on the service. But as a vintage collector, questions that need to be factored in are whether it is polished or not. I think a lot of collectors who have just delve into the vintage arena, don't have enough experience to really make a good judgement call. Many just purchase watches that as long as there are no scratches anywhere, they would consider it a good find and never have even considered the other factors that "serious" collectors look for. The topic of value and price has been brought up numerous times before but like we've all said, it really depends on the buyer. To some as long as the watch is in decent shape they may pay a good price for it, whereas, for some, they consider many other factors. A very hard and sensitive topic to judge. No right or wrong....just depends on where you stand and what your standards are.

[hennabav]

Originally Posted by eparisini

Nikos this is NOS

Emmanuel, is that yours? Stunning true Patrizzi!!

[Submarino]

No matter how each of us define mint, unpolished, flawless, etc. the only terminology or acronym that has one single definition and we all have to agree with is NOS (New Old Stock). NOS will always be an unused watch or part from an old production in perfect spanking brand new condition. Sorry but you can't call it NOS if it's been used even just once. My two cents!!!

[GeoGio Greece]

Niko, it all depends on which side you stand !!

A seller would describe the bellow as a NOS, never out of the box, unpolished, original, unscratched, etc



(Published by L-16610 - Thank You ! )


whilst a potential buyer will turn down the bellow as very expensive its condition, as being full of scratches, requiring a polishing, a new bracelet, a service with new parts, etc !




Hope You accept the Joke !

[Jagatai]

And we have only been discussing parts of the watch that we can see! From my extremely limited understanding, some mechanical parts have to be replaced at every service.

[GeoGio Greece]

Originally Posted by Jagatai

And we have only been discussing parts of the watch that we can see! From my extremely limited understanding, some mechanical parts have to be replaced at every service.

Correct ! All parts are inpected and some are changed if worn or broken, such as tooths of gears, rubies, shafts, balance, etc.

Picture taken and watch serviced by Nikos, member of the Greek forum for Rolex ( Rolexakias ). Nikos is a certified watchmaker by the Swiss WOSTEP.

[JEC]

My translations as I read through most ads -

NOS - It's shiny ergo it must be like new. Sometimes denotes service parts throughout.

Unpolished - it has chamfers, or it is in rough condition and hasn't been polished RECENTLY

Mint - it's been worn regularly but I don't think people will notice

Good condition - well worn

Needs TLC - A basket case that barely functions and will cost more to service than to find a nicer example

Rare - There were only 362 434 of these ever produced! And only two others available on this particular classified!

Perfect - Service parts or refinished

Patina - it's been neglected to the point of developing mold

Just serviced - in 1996 by Joe Schmoes Watch and Vacuum Cleaner Repair. No I don't have a receipt. But I did replace the springbars last month!

Cheap and/or Bargain - for a reason

Guaranteed original XYZ parts - service parts

Keeping perfect time - Strangely it will not when you receive it, must be the humidity in your city

Tropical - water damage

[theloxmyth]

Originally Posted by GeoGio Greece

Correct ! All parts are inpected and some are changed if worn or broken, such as tooths of gears, rubies, shafts, balance, etc.

Picture taken and watch serviced by Nikos, member of the Greek forum for Rolex ( Rolexakias ). Nikos is a certified watchmaker by the Swiss WOSTEP.

Heck.

Is that all there is to them?!

Even a locksmith could put THAT back together.



Kudos to the watch "smiths" here.

[eparisini]

Originally Posted by hennabav

Emmanuel, is that yours? Stunning true Patrizzi!!

NO it owns to a friend of mine, and he wants to sell it for a huge price