When is good, good enough???

[Clay]

The watch is either unworn New Old Stock or......
The case has been polished...But not to much.....
The dial has a small flaw on it, but you can't see it without a loop....
The hands have some oxidation but just a wee bit....
The date wheel isn't original....
The insert is a newer replacement
The pearl isn't tritium.....
It goes on and on...........
Unless you are lucky enough to find that NOS example, we all end up compromising a bit in the end, whether we want to admit it or not...

My question is, where do you draw the line???

For myself, I don't mind a case that has been polished as long as it's not been "over" polished and looks silly.
Date Wheels, inserts and pearls are easily had.
And even a bit of oxidation on the hands doesn't bother me...
But my big thing is the dial.....It must be pristine or I'm not interested.....
Yes, I know that dials can be found, but that's not something I care to monkey about with...Give me that clean dial every time...
How about you all???

[hennabav]

Clay, that's a beautiful example you got there! I agree with you completely there! The dial must be 100% mint perfect!! It's what makes these vintages so unique. If it is not a rare watch, then I get a little more specific. The dial, patina, hands, condition of case, serial, completeness....etc.....

[HL65]

Very nice Clay!! To me- dial is everything and I want a nice case with fat lugs and not over polished- a solid honest example like you have there!

[Ezza8]

Beautiful 666 Clay! Never get sick of looking at that!

I agree the dial is the most important.

Nice matching hands and case which has not been overpolished/refinished comes second.

[psv]

1) Dial and hands

2) Case (not over-polished)

3) The rest: bezel insert, bracelet etc can all be replaced rather easily.

[Beaumont Miller II]

Clay very thought provoking. These are issues that I weigh everytime I buy a vintage piece. Collections evolve as time passes. In the past the mantra was, "The money is in the dial." Don't get me wrong. I love a perfect dial like the one on your 1665. That mantra may still be very well true with some vintage watches; however, more and more discussion seems to be focused on "unpolished" cases, fat/thick lugs, even crown guards, and factory bevels/chamfers. Its not always an easy balance to strike between dial, case condition, and hands etc. Ideally i would like a perfect dial with original or near original case. Sometimes that balance can be a moving target though. I can't say that the balance I have found was the same for each watch. For me the rationale goes something like this:

1. If the watch is relatively common, say a white 1680 or a 1675, then I am not going to settle for a flawed dial. I will look for a better example. Easy decision here. If I am advising someone on a particular watch with a flawed dial, I bring it to their attention. The price paid should take into account the imperfect dial.

2. On vintage references that are more rare, inserts, bracelets, date wheels, and perhaps hands are not a deal breaker for me provided the dial and case are worth the extra effort to locate the parts. Why do I feel this way? Well as someone was bold enough to point out in the recent past, "Where do you think all these spare parts sold on the forums are going?" The parts are going in our watches. For me period correct is important as some of these parts are added to replace original worn parts.

3. The struggle often arises when you add accessories to a rare watch. Please bear with me here. When buying just the watch alone it is all about the watch/bracelet. When you add the original box, guarantee papers, wallet, anchor, hang tags, and tool etc, it becomes more about the complete set and not just the watch head. Sounds like common sense right? Here is the issue: would you pass on a rare complete set in original condition if the dial is not pristine? I wouldn't pass on the complete set, but I might if it was just the watch alone. Reason being, these complete sets on rare watches don't come up for sale often. At some point price can become a big factor depending how rare the watch and set are.

Great thread Clay.

[Jagatai]

Pristine dial patina is fine. Chocolate is fine. Creamy to mango lumes are fine.
Hands must have no cracked lumes! I hate that! I also hate mismatched hand and dial lumes.
Fat lugs. I love domes. No service dials.

Don't care if the pearl is missing or bezel scratched.
I have a little tiny spot on the 6 o'clock of my 5513 I don't mind it.
Makes me know that it is my watch.

[Jagatai]

John I'd pass on a complete set if dial had damage.
All the papers in the world couldn't comfort me.

[Beaumont Miller II]

That's the problem with a long post...so many thoughts to cover. I would not buy a watch with a water damaged dial, spotted dial, cracked dial, scratched dial, or a dial with flaking lume just to get one with box and papers. I was kind of referring to a 99 out of a 100 dial. What many would consider nearly flawless. An example for me would be if the hash mark under the lume plot stopped just shy of the edge of the dial. Nothing more than that. Have a great weekend.

[HL65]

Originally Posted by Beaumont Miller II

That's the problem with a long post...so many thoughts to cover. I would not buy a watch with a water damaged dial, spotted dial, cracked dial, scratched dial, or a dial with flaking lume just to get one with box and papers. I was kind of referring to a 99 out of a 100 dial. What many would consider nearly flawless. An example for me would be if the hash mark under the lume plot stopped just shy of the edge of the dial. Nothing more than that. Have a great weekend.

Fear not Dr. John my friend- for you damaged is not being NOS!
Of course we all know your taste and it is fine which certainly does not include a damaged dial! We have looked at many over the years together and your watches reflect your discriminating taste and style!

[mike]

Originally Posted by Beaumont Miller II

Clay very thought provoking. These are issues that I weigh everytime I buy a vintage piece. Collections evolve as time passes. In the past the mantra was, "The money is in the dial." Don't get me wrong. I love a perfect dial like the one on your 1665. That mantra may still be very well true with some vintage watches; however, more and more discussion seems to be focused on "unpolished" cases, fat/thick lugs, even crown guards, and factory bevels/chamfers. Its not always an easy balance to strike between dial, case condition, and hands etc. Ideally i would like a perfect dial with original or near original case. Sometimes that balance can be a moving target though. I can't say that the balance I have found was the same for each watch. For me the rationale goes something like this:

1. If the watch is relatively common, say a white 1680 or a 1675, then I am not going to settle for a flawed dial. I will look for a better example. Easy decision here. If I am advising someone on a particular watch with a flawed dial, I bring it to their attention. The price paid should take into account the imperfect dial.

2. On vintage references that are more rare, inserts, bracelets, date wheels, and perhaps hands are not a deal breaker for me provided the dial and case are worth the extra effort to locate the parts. Why do I feel this way? Well as someone was bold enough to point out in the recent past, "Where do you think all these spare parts sold on the forums are going?" The parts are going in our watches. For me period correct is important as some of these parts are added to replace original worn parts.

3. The struggle often arises when you add accessories to a rare watch. Please bear with me here. When buying just the watch alone it is all about the watch/bracelet. When you add the original box, guarantee papers, wallet, anchor, hang tags, and tool etc, it becomes more about the complete set and not just the watch head. Sounds like common sense right? Here is the issue: would you pass on a rare complete set in original condition if the dial is not pristine? I wouldn't pass on the complete set, but I might if it was just the watch alone. Reason being, these complete sets on rare watches don't come up for sale often. At some point price can become a big factor depending how rare the watch and set are.

Great thread Clay.

I think that's well said.

Certainly the dial/hands set is critical (for me matching is very important). I do place a lot on the condition of the case/lugs as metal removed is..gone.

[Clay]

I agree that a good case is oh so important.....But there again what is "Good"???
At what point is a case "over polished"???
What is expectable???
These are decisions that each of us must make on each individual watch we consider purchasing...
For example, my 666 and 1665 have both been polished, no question....
But when considering the purchase, to my eye neither had been over polished and I felt that the cases were both expectable ....
Some may look at these two watches and feel differently, but that's what makes this hobby so very interesting...

[greekbum]

Having delt in watches for over 20 years and having seen recenlty what is going on with complete sets and like NOS watches my criteria has changed. I have seen way to many faked sets in the last 2 years sold on Ebay to make me loose interest unless I bought it from the Original Owner myself.I know some will strongly disagree with me but its your money. Me personally I have NO problem buying a watch in any condition as long as the price is right to me.

[RC2]

Looks like a solid watch

[Submarino]

For me a flawless original (non-service) dial with matching hands is the top priority. Then I like a case that is not over polished or with rust marks near the lugs. Third most important part is that the watch is keeping time properly so that it can be worn daily without gaining or losing more than 30" to a minute per week).

A complete set is perfect but only if I am buying from the original owner. To many made up sets out there and I am not interested in having someone over profit from me.

[mldaytona]

Stunning dial.

[JRA]

1. dial - a perfect dial sets the tone no matter what (for me anyway)
2. case - an unpolished case is awesome, slightly polished I can live with
3. date wheel - silver
4. hands - not a big deal because they can be replaced easily depending on the model (for a vintage DJ with no lume you can get a great replacement)
5. bracelet - easily substituted

Clearly, the B&P can be great but if points 1 through 3 are in rough shape, I find it hard to make the investment because you spend too much time chasing up replacement parts...

[GeoGio Greece]

To my opinion and experience, unless you are lucky enough to have a watch purchased new some decades ago (like mine ), which prerequisites you to be old ( like me !! ) or you are VERY lucky to get a NOS, at any time in your life, then you should be prepared to accept a watch with “normal wear and tear”.

If the watch was regularly worn by the previous keeper(s), and depending on the use and if it was pampered or not, it will carry some evident marks. Unless it was kept in a safe box.

The “acceptance line” lies on what you are willing to accept and the reason you are purchasing. It all lies in the perception of vintage for each of us. And the scope that it is purchased. What does a vintage mean to every one of us ?

If you intend to use it, then, even a NOS will end up scratched, if you buy to keep, then you target a relatively good piece.

Some people buy wrecks with the hope to restore them, others only care for pristine examples, but these cost a lot, and I do not believe that they are worth. Unless you are a collector.

[Clay]

Well said George...

[Pete17]

LOL Clay, I haven't drawn the line yet.
There is always at least one little thing I'd like changed or bettered.
Vintage Rolex watches are an inexact science and there is always one around the corner that is in better nick.

It's a looooong slippery slope.

[GeoGio Greece]

Originally Posted by Clay

Well said George...

Thank You Clayton ! I had my first Sub when I was 18, and now I am almost 59. I learned a lot all these years. Each piece has the signs of its use all over it, you can see "first sight" if it was "loved" or just "ignored" or even "tortured".

e.g. This is a 1983 5513, all ariginal, fully used, but well taken care off.

[Clay]

Originally Posted by GeoGio Greece

Thank You Clayton ! I had my first Sub when I was 18, and now I am almost 59. I learned a lot all these years. Each piece has the signs of its use all over it, you can see "first sight" if it was "loved" or just "ignored" or even "tortured".

e.g. This is a 1983 5513, all ariginal, fully used, but well taken care off.

That's a beauty...