Accuracy and consistency of AP ROO Diver (Ceramic Black)

[splitz07]

Hi all,

I recently purchased a ROO Diver Ceramic (Black with Orange markers). I have worn it daily for the past month and over the past two weeks, I have been observing the accuracy of the watch using my iphone clock as a reference and noticed two things that seem a bit odd to me.

Firstly, the alignment of the minute and second hands.

I have noticed that the second hand and the minute hand do not necessarily line up at different times of the day. (i.e. the second hand at the 12 o'clock position when the minute hand is at the minute markers). Some times, they would be aligned perfectly and at other times they can be off by as much as half a minute (i.e. the minute hand is directly in between two minute markers but the second hand is at the 12 o'clock position).

The second hand is also about 10 seconds slower over the same time period. However, I do not think that the second hand being off by only 10 seconds is a big issue.

Second, and what I believe is the bigger issue is the accuracy and consistency of the minute hand. As a whole, over the past two weeks, the watch on average is about 10-20 seconds slower which I believe is well within the tolerances of accuracy over a longer time period.
However, I use the word average because the variation within each 24 hours period can vary quite widely.

One moment, the watch actually seems to track the time pretty well, my watch hitting the minute about 5-15 seconds seconds after the iphone clock hits the minute. But at other times, they seem to be off also by as much as half a minute (totally opposite). Then when I look at it again at some other random time, they are pretty in sync again. I understand that there are also tolerance for the different adjustment positions which are given in terms of +/- seconds per 24 hours so for my watch to deviate so much within hours seems abnormal to me.

So my questions are:

1. Are these observations normal for a mechanical timepiece, yet alone an AP?
2. The second hand on mechanical watches operate independently from the minute and hour hands right? (given that the second hand marker is mounted on a different wheel in the watch, if I am not wrong, and that watches nowadays have the hack feature which stops the second hand movement while setting the time) If so, why does the second and minute hands on my watch behave so inconsistently?

I never really paid attention to these issues on my Omega and Rolex but it has become something that I am curious about. I have tried searching the web on these specific issues but have not really turned up anything that matches what I am experiencing.

Note that I bought this from the AP boutique in Zurich, Switzerland and this was also a display piece. I was not able to find this particular model at other shops. Should I send it to my local service center to have it checked out?

Thanks in advance for your time! I hope to learn something from you guys!

[splitz07]

I have attached some images I have taken over the last 14 hours using an app called TWIXT TIME.

However, I do not believe the app to be accurate as it bases its relies on the seconds hand for precision - e.g. if minute hand in line with the minute marker but the second hand is at the 6 o'clock position, the app will read the time as xx:xx:30 seconds. Similarly, if the minute marker is not at the minute mark but the second hand is at the 12 o'clock position, the app will read the time as xx:xx:00.

Considering that the photos show the minute and seconds hands being aligned at some points and then out of sync in other points, I do not believe this app gives an accurate reading.

The first picture (9:27pm) shows the minute and second hands lined up:


The second picture (10:25pm) shows the minute and second hands start to get out of alignment. The minute hand is now slower:


The third picture (10:48pm) shows the minute hand being slow again. Second hand is at the 2 o'clock position but the minute hand has not reached the next full minute position:


The next two pictures (2am-3am) shows the minute and second hands being in line again:



Finally this morning (11:05am) the minute and second hands are out of alignment again. The minute hand is at the 5 minute marker but the second hand is at the 22 second position:


Given the pictures above, is this normal?

[texex91]

Send it to AP Service and it will run perfect.

Problem solved.

[ciceroyeah]

Perhaps call the local service centre first to determine whether the differing rates you've noticed are outside of normal operating parameters. If they are, and the service centre thinks it warrants servicing, bring it in. If they are not outside of ordinary parameters, then you've saved yourself a trip since it sounds like it's overall keeping excellent time for a mechanical timepiece, though the minute hand thing is a little weird.

[improviz]

I've observed the same phenomenon of minute hand vs second hand alignment varying depending on position on the dial on a few of my Rolexes and this has been discussed in that forum, it is not abnormal and is a known phenomenon. Here are a few threads from the main Rolex forum where owners noticed and complained about it:
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=293750
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=255592
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=204153

Also discussed in this thread:
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=216279

Timing wise what you are describing is something I've not seen before, normally watches are consistently either fast or slow, but not both, unless you are doing something like setting the watch in different positions while at rest (i.e. crown up, down, horizontal) which can vary it in the fashion you're describing as effects of gravity will result in watch running faster/slower depending on its resting position. I'd suggest jettisoning the app you're using an instead doing it the old fashioned way and setting the watch, and timing it once every 24 hours or so for several days using Emerald Time app, or online via US Naval Observatory, making sure to keep watch in the same resting position every night to rule that out as a variable in its timing.

[leisen]

I own a classic Safari ROO from 2008 that presents a similar issue with the second and minute hands. I think 3120 based calibers are not specifically reliable. I'm used to it.

[splitz07]

Originally Posted by improviz

I've observed the same phenomenon of minute hand vs second hand alignment varying depending on position on the dial on a few of my Rolexes and this has been discussed in that forum, it is not abnormal and is a known phenomenon. Here are a few threads from the main Rolex forum where owners noticed and complained about it:
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=293750
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=255592
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=204153

Also discussed in this thread:
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=216279

Timing wise what you are describing is something I've not seen before, normally watches are consistently either fast or slow, but not both, unless you are doing something like setting the watch in different positions while at rest (i.e. crown up, down, horizontal) which can vary it in the fashion you're describing as effects of gravity will result in watch running faster/slower depending on its resting position. I'd suggest jettisoning the app you're using an instead doing it the old fashioned way and setting the watch, and timing it once every 24 hours or so for several days using Emerald Time app, or online via US Naval Observatory, making sure to keep watch in the same resting position every night to rule that out as a variable in its timing.

the threads you posted seem to be more about aligning the minute and second hands when setting the time. my issue is more of the irregularities that take place despite getting the minute and second hands to align during the initial setting.

I will probably observe a few more days to see if the timings when the markers are out of alignment happen around the same time e.g. when the dials are at specific timings.

I also don't rely on the app for accuracy. i just use it cos it time stamps when i take the shots so i have an easy reference =)

Thank you nevertheless for sharing those threads!

[improviz]

Originally Posted by splitz07

the threads you posted seem to be more about aligning the minute and second hands when setting the time. my issue is more of the irregularities that take place despite getting the minute and second hands to align during the initial setting.

? I think they deal with same phenomenon:

Originally Posted by Eric14060m

anyone else out there try to line up the minute hand to pass exactly a minute marker when the second hand passes 12???

i've tried countless times with my 14060m and the dial is dead on at some markers but not at others and it drives me nuts!!

Originally Posted by Jetjock

Hi! Everyone, Fairly new here. I have a new DJ II with the baton markers on dial. My Issue is this, When setting the time I make sure the minute hand is squarely in the middle of the required baton & also the sweep second hand at the twelve O'clock position. I don't know if I am being overly picky, but as the minute hand moves to some where else on the dial, {mostly the opposite side of the face} and is supposed to be at that five minute marker, it is slightly off center on the specific baton. Hope this is understandable to you all. Would love to hear comments, or learn some thing about this. Thanks David.

Originally Posted by Megalobyte

You can get it very close, but what you might find is, at certain times it'll still be slightly off, but that's OK. :) Half way, no, it can be better, exactly on every minute marker every time, no.

This is exactly what you described, the markers misaligned wrt the second hand and being precisely aligned at some points but not at others. It happens, nothing to be worried about IMO.

Originally Posted by splitz07

I will probably observe a few more days to see if the timings when the markers are out of alignment happen around the same time e.g. when the dials are at specific timings.

I also don't rely on the app for accuracy. i just use it cos it time stamps when i take the shots so i have an easy reference =)

Lol ah, OK, understood...

Originally Posted by splitz07

Thank you nevertheless for sharing those threads!

Sure. In my experience mechanicals keep pretty precise time, particularly for a bunch of gears and springs, but they all have little idiosynchrocies. For me they're jewelry good for at a glance time checks, if I want absolute precision I'll grab the iphone.

[redsubby]

I've noticed the minute hand tend to move a little bit. I've owned 3 AP's with this same caliber and all 3 had the same issue, so I guess it's normal.

[ec00421]

Send to AP. Itll be sorted

[eonflux]

My 44 FC minute doesn't consistently hit a minute mark when I try to synch it to do so when the second hand reaches the 60 mark. Sometimes can be half a minute (50%) off.

My GMT also is off at times but to a smaller degree, about 10% or so.
SubC on the other hand is dead on, and consistently so.

Perhaps the 3120/3126 design allows more play in the position of the minute hand. When I operate the chrono, the (main) minute hand moves a little.

[splitz07]

Just to update:

I sent the watch to the service center today and also spoke to one of the watch technicians there about the issue with my watch.

I showed him lots of photographs which showed the minute and second hands having the misalignment issues at random times and that there was no discernible pattern as to when they would be in line or not in line.

The initial prognosis was that the minute and second hands might have not been properly centered but he could not observe anything wrong just based on a visual examination.

We both agreed that what was strange about my issue was the randomness in which the problem occurred. For example, if the gears itself were not properly centered, the misalignment of the minute and second hands should still happen at consistent times (i.e. every time the minute hand is at a certain position or at certain fixed times of the day).

The technician requested that the watch be taken in for testing as the problem is likely to be within the movement itself and that he suspects that the issue is likely to lie with the minute and/or hour wheels.

I should get an update by next week and will share it in this thread so that others can take note.

Thanks all for your input so far!

[splitz07]

APSC has gotten back to me.

Turns out my watch has a low amplitude. Kinda surprising considering it is a new watch but they said the watch was at the AD for about a year.

ASPC said that the misalignment issue of the minute and second hands is correlated to the low amplitude issue. How it is correlated I do not know... But they said a full service should fix the problem.

The sad thing is that my watch is gonna be with them for 6-8 weeks. Very sad for a watch I've only had for less than 2 months.

It's gonna be a long wait. But hopefully it fixes the issue.

[lapince]

As far as my small knowledge of mechanical watches permits me to say, I understand that usually an auto movement "auto regulates", which means that maybe one day you will have minus 10sec, another day plus 20, but on the long run, for example if to see on one month, the average makes it more like 3-5 sec+/- per day, sometimes on some models that I used to have, I would set the time and a few hours later would see +/- 20 sec after 5-6 hours, but if to let it run after 3 days I would be at +/- 12 sec in all, so the thing with autos, again as far as I understand, is not to get stressed out because on one day you have +20sec, but to see the average on a longer period, hope that made sense

[splitz07]

Update time. Good and bad news.

Went to the service center after close to 2 months.

Apparently they changed quite a number of parts which they could not disclose completely due to 'company policy'. What they could tell me was the major parts that was replaced with so called 'new versions'.

1. Second wheel
2. Third wheel
3. Date change mechanism
4. Automatic gear component

They didn't specify if these parts were replaced as they were faulty but just that their procedure during service was to replace any components with newer versions if available. Fair enough. (BTW, I saw the hand written list of components replaced.. there were AT LEAST 10 parts...)

However, after examining the watch, I noticed a small scratch/scuff on the case just below the bezel at the 7 o'clock position. After disappearing back into their office for 10 mins, they informed me that I would have to leave my watch till tomorrow when the manager gets to review the case and compare it with their picture record. They could not simply make a decision on the spot on any remedial action to be taken because the ceramic case could not simply be polished.

I must say I am quite disappointed with what has been happening. I love the design of the watch itself but it has caused so much problems.

Even if they were to replace an entire case for me, I am sure it would take a few more months. I've only had the watch for close to 4 months, of which 2 have been spent at the service center.

Do you guys think it Would it be fair to insist that they find an entirely new replacement from their inventory? Or seek some form of compensation for the inconvenience caused? It's rather peculiar that their ceramics are touted by them to be 9x harder than steel.. yet got scratched during servicing...

[Snow-Dweller]

I would certainly try asking for a new watch. You don't get if you don't ask.

[Archangellight]

to break the rules you must first master them. Lol

[splitz07]

Originally Posted by Clivek

I would certainly try asking for a new watch. You don't get if you don't ask.

hell I don't even know how long I'd have to wait for a new one...

just sent an email through their webpage...

does anyone know the direct email to their head office? =\

[jjnd08]

Originally Posted by splitz07

hell I don't even know how long I'd have to wait for a new one...

just sent an email through their webpage...

does anyone know the direct email to their head office? =\

Sounds frustrating.

Best of luck, and keep us posted.

[splitz07]

Originally Posted by jjnd08

Sounds frustrating.

Best of luck, and keep us posted.

thanks. I really wonder what they will tell me tomorrow... either way, it seems like a lose-lose situation

[lapince]

Originally Posted by splitz07

Update time. Good and bad news.

Went to the service center after close to 2 months.

Apparently they changed quite a number of parts which they could not disclose completely due to 'company policy'. What they could tell me was the major parts that was replaced with so called 'new versions'.

1. Second wheel
2. Third wheel
3. Date change mechanism
4. Automatic gear component

They didn't specify if these parts were replaced as they were faulty but just that their procedure during service was to replace any components with newer versions if available. Fair enough. (BTW, I saw the hand written list of components replaced.. there were AT LEAST 10 parts...)

However, after examining the watch, I noticed a small scratch/scuff on the case just below the bezel at the 7 o'clock position. After disappearing back into their office for 10 mins, they informed me that I would have to leave my watch till tomorrow when the manager gets to review the case and compare it with their picture record. They could not simply make a decision on the spot on any remedial action to be taken because the ceramic case could not simply be polished.

I must say I am quite disappointed with what has been happening. I love the design of the watch itself but it has caused so much problems.

Even if they were to replace an entire case for me, I am sure it would take a few more months. I've only had the watch for close to 4 months, of which 2 have been spent at the service center.

Do you guys think it Would it be fair to insist that they find an entirely new replacement from their inventory? Or seek some form of compensation for the inconvenience caused? It's rather peculiar that their ceramics are touted by them to be 9x harder than steel.. yet got scratched during servicing...

Man I have the same watch since about 2 weeks, have been enjoying it and haven't paid attention to wether the minute hand was off or not or accuracy, I've just put it at the exact time and will be checking, but even if it is a little off I think I won't send it in, I prefer the minute hand to be sometimes a little off but with a good general accuracy than sending it and getting it back with a scratch on the ceramic, seems other members with this movement have also had minute hands a little off, oh wait after 10 minutes the minute hand is completely off, by 50%, I just put it back to normal will see but if it's off by 50% 10 minutes after setting it it will probably continue to do so, of course it's not very cool and a little disappointing, with the changes they made please update us after a few days to say if the minute hand is ok or not, I will consider then sending it or not, but again even if this is really not cool, and you should expect better from a high end brand like AP, I'm not sure I will send it in, anyways I have a friend who is a reputed grey dealer in France and he had told me 1 year ago that AP had quite a few QC problems and that around 20% of the RO and ROO models were sent back by owners for some kind of problem, of course I would like the minute and second hand to be in sync but being without it for a long time with the eventual risk of them damaging the case or bezel will probably make me think twice before sending it, anyways please keep us updated as just having purchased the same watch as you I am concerned and interested in what will happen next. Good luck for the case problem I hope they'll replace it for you if they damaged it which is unacceptable IMO

Originally Posted by Clivek

I would certainly try asking for a new watch. You don't get if you don't ask.

You think they would give a new watch for something like this? It would be great if they did but I have my doubts on that, even if I hope for the OP that they will

Originally Posted by splitz07

hell I don't even know how long I'd have to wait for a new one...

just sent an email through their webpage...

does anyone know the direct email to their head office? =\

Especially they don't produce them anymore even if I think they still have some in stock

Originally Posted by splitz07

thanks. I really wonder what they will tell me tomorrow... either way, it seems like a lose-lose situation

Yeah definitely not cool, you don't have pics showing the scratch?

[lapince]

Well I have been looking at my minute hand since reading your post, it's incredible, 1 minute it's 50% off and 5 minutes later it's right on track, that is annoying but again if the general accuracy is good I don't think I will send it in, might do it before the warranty stops but for now will try to just enjoy it and not pay too much attention to this factor, but unbelievable that in 5 minute intervals it can be fine or 50% off, never seen this in any watch before...

[splitz07]

Originally Posted by lapince

Man I have the same watch since about 2 weeks, have been enjoying it and haven't paid attention to wether the minute hand was off or not or accuracy, I've just put it at the exact time and will be checking, but even if it is a little off I think I won't send it in, I prefer the minute hand to be sometimes a little off but with a good general accuracy than sending it and getting it back with a scratch on the ceramic, seems other members with this movement have also had minute hands a little off, oh wait after 10 minutes the minute hand is completely off, by 50%, I just put it back to normal will see but if it's off by 50% 10 minutes after setting it it will probably continue to do so, of course it's not very cool and a little disappointing, with the changes they made please update us after a few days to say if the minute hand is ok or not, I will consider then sending it or not, but again even if this is really not cool, and you should expect better from a high end brand like AP, I'm not sure I will send it in, anyways I have a friend who is a reputed grey dealer in France and he had told me 1 year ago that AP had quite a few QC problems and that around 20% of the RO and ROO models were sent back by owners for some kind of problem, of course I would like the minute and second hand to be in sync but being without it for a long time with the eventual risk of them damaging the case or bezel will probably make me think twice before sending it, anyways please keep us updated as just having purchased the same watch as you I am concerned and interested in what will happen next. Good luck for the case problem I hope they'll replace it for you if they damaged it which is unacceptable IMO



You think they would give a new watch for something like this? It would be great if they did but I have my doubts on that, even if I hope for the OP that they will



Especially they don't produce them anymore even if I think they still have some in stock



Yeah definitely not cool, you don't have pics showing the scratch?

No pics of the scratch. It wasn't a deep one to be honest, looks more scuff like..like a blunt object that was rubbed against the case rather than a sharp one. You have to catch it at the right angle under lighting to see it. But I have an eye for detail and such things stand out to me. I spotted it within a few seconds but the staff attending to me had to ask the watchmaker to check the watch to confirm.

It further bothers me as 1. it is a brand new watch and 2. It's a ceramic one that's supposed to be much much more scratch resistant. In the 1.5 months I wore it daily I didn't even put a mark on it... I had a few slight grazes again my office chair but no visible damage at all. I even insisted the service center highlight to me any scratches or marks before taking the watch in to which there was none.

In the long run, I'm sure that scratches would occur naturally as part of 'wear n tear' and at some point I would end up re-casing the watch. But this just isn't acceptable for a new piece imo.

[splitz07]

Originally Posted by lapince

Well I have been looking at my minute hand since reading your post, it's incredible, 1 minute it's 50% off and 5 minutes later it's right on track, that is annoying but again if the general accuracy is good I don't think I will send it in, might do it before the warranty stops but for now will try to just enjoy it and not pay too much attention to this factor, but unbelievable that in 5 minute intervals it can be fine or 50% off, never seen this in any watch before...

Haha yours seems worse than mine. Mine was like randomly over between 20 minutes to several hours.

But accuracy wise, I can tell u that it was pretty darn good. Over 11 days I only loss 2.1 seconds overall.

[lapince]

Originally Posted by splitz07

No pics of the scratch. It wasn't a deep one to be honest, looks more scuff like..like a blunt object that was rubbed against the case rather than a sharp one. You have to catch it at the right angle under lighting to see it. But I have an eye for detail and such things stand out to me. I spotted it within a few seconds but the staff attending to me had to ask the watchmaker to check the watch to confirm.

It further bothers me as 1. it is a brand new watch and 2. It's a ceramic one that's supposed to be much much more scratch resistant. In the 1.5 months I wore it daily I didn't even put a mark on it... I had a few slight grazes again my office chair but no visible damage at all. I even insisted the service center highlight to me any scratches or marks before taking the watch in to which there was none.

In the long run, I'm sure that scratches would occur naturally as part of 'wear n tear' and at some point I would end up re-casing the watch. But this just isn't acceptable for a new piece imo.

Of course you buy ceramic partly because it's practically unscratchable, I too would be crazy if I gave it to AP and it came back with a mark...

Originally Posted by splitz07

Haha yours seems worse than mine. Mine was like randomly over between 20 minutes to several hours.

But accuracy wise, I can tell u that it was pretty darn good. Over 11 days I only loss 2.1 seconds overall.

Yeah mine is much worse, it's crazy, 1 minute it's ok and a few minutes later it's half off, unbelievable, just looked at it and now it's 50% off, that's really not cool, you would expect a brand like AP to not have these kind of defects, as again I've never seen anything like this in any of my previous watches, that's really not cool

[texex91]

Originally Posted by lapince

Of course you buy ceramic partly because it's practically unscratchable, I too would be crazy if I gave it to AP and it came back with a mark...



Yeah mine is much worse, it's crazy, 1 minute it's ok and a few minutes later it's half off, unbelievable, just looked at it and now it's 50% off, that's really not cool, you would expect a brand like AP to not have these kind of defects, as again I've never seen anything like this in any of my previous watches, that's really not cool

I think you stated you purchased at the Paris AP Boutique...just take it back and have them send it in for service (and get third year warranty stamp while it's there). If your watch is I serial (which I assume) they have been much better than H serials (which did have issues keeping time). Best of luck.

[splitz07]

Originally Posted by lapince

Yeah mine is much worse, it's crazy, 1 minute it's ok and a few minutes later it's half off, unbelievable, just looked at it and now it's 50% off, that's really not cool, you would expect a brand like AP to not have these kind of defects, as again I've never seen anything like this in any of my previous watches, that's really not cool

Don't bother with you accuracy in the very short term. Take the measurements daily over the next one or two weeks and average it out.

When I took timings every couple hours, I had some cases where it was +20 over seconds, some timings -20 over seconds. But the idiosyncrasy averages itself out over the longer run.

Its a damn irritating problem but in the long run time keeping wise, its still accurate.

[lapince]

Originally Posted by texex91

I think you stated you purchased at the Paris AP Boutique...just take it back and have them send it in for service (and get third year warranty stamp while it's there). If your watch is I serial (which I assume) they have been much better than H serials (which did have issues keeping time). Best of luck.

Thanks Paul and yes it's I serial, I did buy it in Paris, anyways I'm going on vacation in 2 weeks, since there's going to be beach and pool I'm going to take the AP ad leave the Patek and I'll see when I come back what I do, haven't done accuracy checks since I have it but the minute hand is just crazy, only a few minutes apart, 3 to 5, it's either on the mark or exactly in the middle

Originally Posted by splitz07

Don't bother with you accuracy in the very short term. Take the measurements daily over the next one or two weeks and average it out.

When I took timings every couple hours, I had some cases where it was +20 over seconds, some timings -20 over seconds. But the idiosyncrasy averages itself out over the longer run.

Its a damn irritating problem but in the long run time keeping wise, its still accurate.

Yeah I know that you need to check on the long run that they "auto regulate", I had some watches loose or gain 15-20 seconds in a few hours but which were very accurate when checking every 2-3 weeks, but one thing's sure the minute hand won't auto regulate, but as I said I am leaving soon and plan to take it with me, but I do think when I come back I will give it in, a high end piece should not be working like that, unbelievable

[116680]

Watching the outcome of this with interest, as I will have a comparable thread to post soon about the outcome of a brand new DSSD that was sent in to correct a couple of defects under warranty and came back badly scratched. Should have an update tomorrow and it will be interesting to compare AP vs Rolex.

To the OP - trust me, I feel your pain !!!

[splitz07]

Honestly I don't expect the service center to be able to do much. I expect them to throw out some technicality or term and condition that firstly absolves them from having to give me a new watch.

Then they will at best offer to replace the casing and also require me to leave the watch for who knows how long, depriving me the use of the watch again. Alternatively they send it back to Switzerland where they probably have the tools to repair/polish the case. If it's the latter, then I would have lost one polish 'cycle' on a literally brand new purchase and again be without the watch for months.

I will try to get them to put me in touch with management directly to address the issue. Ideally to replace the watch entirely and allowing me to keep using the current one till the replacement is sourced. It's a long shot... But what can I do?