Not another accuracy thread!!

[Arby1028]

I searched so please don't flame me.

I noticed when I manually wind my SS Sub Date 16610 it gains time very rapidly - like 30 to 45 seconds in a couple hours. When I don't manually wind it I'm within +/- 2 seconds a day. Why is this and has anyone else experienced similar issues?

TIA!

[SPACE-DWELLER]

That's pretty normal. You affect the amplitude (rate at which the balance wheel swings) by winding it up fully. Once the amplitude gets back to normal, accuracy will, too.

It's the same thing with my "shake trick". To quickly gain a couple of secs., you can move your arm with the watch on quickly back and forth (best results if you make sure that the watch face is horizontal whilst shaking it). This will affect the amplitude, making the watch go faster for a couple of hours.

[Arby1028]

Originally Posted by SPACE-DWELLER

That's pretty normal. You affect the amplitude (rate at which the balance wheel swings) by winding it up fully. Once the amplitude gets back to normal, accuracy will, too.

It's the same thing with my "shake trick". To quickly gain a couple of secs., you can move your arm with the watch on quickly back and forth (best results if you make sure that the watch face is horizontal whilst shaking it). This will affect the amplitude, making the watch go faster for a couple of hours.

Thanks, SD. Instead of winding it about 30 turns manually should I just wind it 15 to 20 turns only to not affect the accuracy?

[SPACE-DWELLER]

I would just wind it fully to get full power reserve. On the other hand, gaining so much as you stated is not normal. It should gain like 3 - 4 secs., not 30 to 45 secs.

[Arby1028]

Originally Posted by SPACE-DWELLER

I would just wind it fully to get full power reserve. On the other hand, gaining so much as you stated is not normal. It should gain like 3 - 4 secs., not 30 to 45 secs.

Should I have it serviced due to this issue? Got it new in December 2007.

[SPACE-DWELLER]

Well, it seems to keep time within COSC specs if you don't manually wind it.

So don't manually wind it.

Nah, seriously, it's normal that the watch gains a little after having been fully wound, but not gaining that much. So I would have a watchmaker have a look at it.

[jdc]

Bo that's really interesting information

[Jedi]

It sounds like you need to get the mainspring looked at. Optimum torque loads are achieved in the full to half wind power band. It sounds like tension issues in the main spring.

I do not see how winding can effect the amplitude of the balance, seeing as winding only adds tension to the main spring.

Shaking a watch can effect the amplitude as the balance is being subjected to jarring and movement which puts it out of alignment. This is not to be recommended as it puts unnecessary stress on the balance pivot not to mention the delicate balance spring.

[Jedi]

I've never had an issue with my watch gaining so much time after being fully wound.

[Tools]

Originally Posted by Jedi

It sounds like you need to get the mainspring looked at. Optimum torque loads are achieved in the full to half wind power band. It sounds like tension issues in the main spring.

I do not see how winding can effect the amplitude of the balance, seeing as winding only adds tension to the main spring.

Shaking a watch can effect the amplitude as the balance is being subjected to jarring and movement which puts it out of alignment. This is not to be recommended as it puts unnecessary stress on the balance pivot not to mention the delicate balance spring.

I agree....

No watch should gain 30 to 45 seconds in a couple of hours after it is wound.

There's something wrong here with a watch only 1 year old...

[MikeV]

Normally I lose about 3sec/day. When I manually wind it, i'll lose 1-2sec/day for 24hrs and then it goes back to normal. 30sec in a couple of hours seems like alot

[Zed Homme]

Originally Posted by SPACE-DWELLER

That's pretty normal. You affect the amplitude (rate at which the balance wheel swings) by winding it up fully. Once the amplitude gets back to normal, accuracy will, too.

It's the same thing with my "shake trick". To quickly gain a couple of secs., you can move your arm with the watch on quickly back and forth (best results if you make sure that the watch face is horizontal whilst shaking it). This will affect the amplitude, making the watch go faster for a couple of hours.

Interesting. I use your shake trick to "jumpstart" an unworn automatic watch before I set the time. In theory though, If I am wearing my Sub and I am active, wouldnt the watch be wound to its full power reserve as I am wearing it? Could this cause my watch to be consistently fast? I've never bothered to check accuracy over a greater than 24hr period. In those 24 hours, my watches seem to run consistently within 2 sec. whether I wear them or not.

[Tools]

Originally Posted by Zed Homme

Interesting. I use your shake trick to "jumpstart" an unworn automatic watch before I set the time. In theory though, If I am wearing my Sub and I am active, wouldnt the watch be wound to its full power reserve as I am wearing it? Could this cause my watch to be consistently fast? I've never bothered to check accuracy over a greater than 24hr period. In those 24 hours, my watches seem to run consistently within 2 sec. whether I wear them or not.

The amplitude is the degree of rotation the balance wheel takes around it's pivot point. When you shake it you interrupt this rotation by imparting centrifugal force either with the balance swing, or against it causing it to stop short. These things will speed the watch up slightly.

This is the reason that a worn watch will generally always be faster than a watch that is static, or even a watch on a winder.

But, we are talking in fractions of a second here and not a significant amount..

As far as wearing it to wind it fully...you can if you're active...but most of us aren't active enough to fully wind and mostly only top-off a partially discharged watch.

If your watch operates in the bottom half of it's power band, it will run fast, if you operate in the upper half (closer to fully wound) it will be slightly slower. This is due to the inherent parasitic drag and full torque pull on the drive train from the "tighter" mainspring..

[Zed Homme]

Thanks Larry!

[GoldenBear]

Do you guys regularly wind your watches? I only wind mine when they have stopped running after several days off my wrist. Other than that, my hand motion keeps mine running perfectly.

[Tools]

Originally Posted by GoldenBear

Do you guys regularly wind your watches? I only wind mine when they have stopped running after several days off my wrist. Other than that, my hand motion keeps mine running perfectly.

The only time I ever wind an auto is when it stops, or, ocassionally, when I have changed out for the day to another. When I put it back on I'm pretty sure that it is getting close to the end of it's expected reserve.

[dsimon9]

On July 1st I corrected the date on my 116713. While there, I decided to fully wind the watch. My local AD recommends a full wind about once a month. In any case, the watch gained a second for each of the next couple of days and has since settled down.

As a test I had sync'd my watch with the gmt time on June 9th. Between then and July 1st, it was spot on. Because of the full wind, it has gained 2 seconds between the 1st and today (the 4th).

It is a keeper.

Dex

[dsimon9]

Larry:

Thanks for the explanation. Very helpful.

Dex

Originally Posted by Tools

The amplitude is the degree of rotation the balance wheel takes around it's pivot point. When you shake it you interrupt this rotation by imparting centrifugal force either with the balance swing, or against it causing it to stop short. These things will speed the watch up slightly.

This is the reason that a worn watch will generally always be faster than a watch that is static, or even a watch on a winder.

But, we are talking in fractions of a second here and not a significant amount..

As far as wearing it to wind it fully...you can if you're active...but most of us aren't active enough to fully wind and mostly only top-off a partially discharged watch.

If your watch operates in the bottom half of it's power band, it will run fast, if you operate in the upper half (closer to fully wound) it will be slightly slower. This is due to the inherent parasitic drag and full torque pull on the drive train from the "tighter" mainspring..

[BigHat]

Originally Posted by Tools

The amplitude is the degree of rotation the balance wheel takes around it's pivot point.
.

Larry,
If we can digress slightly in this thread, can you discuss the spec. of "amplitude" a bit more? I notice in many watch reviews amplitude is cited. Are lower numbers better?

What does " Average amplitude -- 282 degrees in flat positions and 243 degrees in hanging positions" really mean?

[stevemulholland3]

my new 16803(I say new but mean new to me as it is 20 years old)is running about 10 second slow in a 24 hr period.However the person I got it from says it has been inactive for the last year,shall I wear it consistently for a few more days while checking to see if it gets any better?or should I just send it off for service?
cheers,
steve

[frostie]

Originally Posted by stevemulholland3

my new 16803(I say new but mean new to me as it is 20 years old)is running about 10 second slow in a 24 hr period.However the person I got it from says it has been inactive for the last year,shall I wear it consistently for a few more days while checking to see if it gets any better?or should I just send it off for service?
cheers,
steve

If i where you i would send it off for servicing. Scratches will be removed and the whole movement will be lubricated and recalibrated then you are going to have a fully new watch

It's not a good idea to leave a mechanical watch in a non operational state for a long period of time as this can affect the lubricant inside the movement. The lubricant is supposed to flow inside and not be stationary

[stevemulholland3]

Originally Posted by frostie

If i where you i would send it off for servicing. Scratches will be removed and the whole movement will be lubricated and recalibrated then you are going to have a fully new watch

It's not a good idea to leave a mechanical watch in a non operational state for a long period of time as this can affect the lubricant inside the movement. The lubricant is supposed to flow inside and not be stationary

I will wear it for a month or so then send it off.

[Arby1028]

Good info everyone....I appreciate the help. Going to manually wind tonight and check in the morning. If it runs fast again it's going in for serviceing.

I would guess my watch is still under warranty?

[Tools]

Originally Posted by BigHat

Larry,
If we can digress slightly in this thread, can you discuss the spec. of "amplitude" a bit more? I notice in many watch reviews amplitude is cited. Are lower numbers better?

What does " Average amplitude -- 282 degrees in flat positions and 243 degrees in hanging positions" really mean?

Sure, we can....

Amplitude is the maximum swing of the balance wheel from it's position at rest. It doesn't always swing the same exact number of degrees...plus it's doing this at a tremendous speed so everything has an influence on it.

In the first case...282 degrees is the average number of degrees the balance wheel rotated during the measured time period laying flat on it's back.

In the second case, 243 degrees is an average over the same time while it had the additional drag of gravity while the wheel (watch) was hanging, and also resting laterally on its pivot jewels at each end. Gravity affects it more here because on each swing it must rotate "uphill" during ~half it's rotation.

A higher velocity (speed) equates to a larger angle of amplitude

[Marrk]

Larry, et al,

With all due respect, I find it hard to believe that a Rolex sport watch would be seriously injured by shaking your wrist. I mean, I'll believe it, but help me here. Define "shaking":

1) shaking a martini with your Rolex on?
2) playing a one-on-one pickup game with Kobe with your Rolex on?
3) strapping your Rolex to the propeller blade of a boat motor?

Thanks.

Mark

[Zed Homme]

Originally Posted by Marrk

Larry, et al,

With all due respect, I find it hard to believe that a Rolex sport watch would be seriously injured by shaking your wrist. I mean, I'll believe it, but help me here. Define "shaking":

1) shaking a martini with your Rolex on?
2) playing a one-on-one pickup game with Kobe with your Rolex on?
3) strapping your Rolex to the propeller blade of a boat motor?

Thanks.

Mark

I would expect my Rolex to survive all three of your scenarios! However, the matter of discussion here is whether such actions will temporarily affect the accuracy of the piece, not whether it receives actual damage...

[Marrk]

Please see Post #8 above.

"Shaking a watch can effect the amplitude as the balance is being subjected to jarring and movement which puts it out of alignment. This is not to be recommended as it puts unnecessary stress on the balance pivot not to mention the delicate balance spring."

Originally Posted by Zed Homme

I would expect my Rolex to survive all three of your scenarios! However, the matter of discussion here is whether such actions will temporarily affect the accuracy of the piece, not whether it receives actual damage...

[Arby1028]

I set my watch to the Official US Time at 8:15am this morning after giving it a full manual wind. It was spot-on for about an hour. Then I checked it at 10:15am (2 hours elapsed) and it was 6 seconds fast. During this time I was wearing it while running a few errands. Checked it again at 10:30am (2 hours 15 minutes elapsed) and it's 10 seconds fast.

I'll keep checking throughout the day, but obviously something is wrong. Does anyone have the Customer Service Number for Rolex? I got on the Rolex Website, but was so irritated by all the BS on their site I couldn't look at it anymore.

[Tools]

Originally Posted by Marrk

Larry, et al,

With all due respect, I find it hard to believe that a Rolex sport watch would be seriously injured by shaking your wrist. I mean, I'll believe it, but help me here. Define "shaking":

1) shaking a martini with your Rolex on?
2) playing a one-on-one pickup game with Kobe with your Rolex on?
3) strapping your Rolex to the propeller blade of a boat motor?

Thanks.
Mark

Originally Posted by Marrk

Please see Post #8 above.

"Shaking a watch can effect the amplitude as the balance is being subjected to jarring and movement which puts it out of alignment. This is not to be recommended as it puts unnecessary stress on the balance pivot not to mention the delicate balance spring."

Well...

I didn't say it, I only agreed to the statement and I suppose you would have to define "shaking"

The shock systems on watches are located at the pivots of the balance specifically to "give" a bit when the balance wheel is thrown about in the case. This can be from dropping, jarring, and too agressive shaking. While Rolex has alleviated the problem of a tangled hairspring and one getting cought on the balance cock somewhat by using a full balance bridge, the fact is that "shaken watch Syndrome" can snap the balance staff, break the jewels, or bang the pallet against the escapement wheel and break things, and tangle the hairspring (cause some windings to jump onto others)..

But keep in mind, my definition of shaking is agressiively whipping the watch to and fro without regard for the consequences.

Many folks might equate shaking with the rapid rotating of the wrist to wind their watch (I do this sometimes) or the swirling that JJ and Bo speak about....or perhaps shaking or winding in a "frisbee flip" motion; I don't think these actions can readily break the watch but definitely will affect the amplitude...

[Arby1028]

Uh-oh...methinks my thread has officially been hijacked!!