Ebay's Response Springer regarding Tudor/Rolex Fraud

[springer]

I received the following email message on 3/31/08, from the office of the CEO of ebay, Bill Cobb. My initial email message to Cobb follows the ebay message.

It was recommended to me by others, that I contact ebay over the proliferation of Tudor - Rolex dialed watches that were being sold on ebay with impunity. These others had contacted ebay in the past, thru the preferred contact method outlined by ebay, but nothing was ever done by ebay to the sellers who still continue to sell the redialed, fake or counterfeit Tudors. Call them what you will, they are not a Rolex watch, but a watch brand manufactured by Rolex. Remember, there are many first time buyers out there, who don't know a Rolex from a Tudor. Many have purchased these redialed or fake watches thinking it is a Rolex - only to be disappointed later when it was too late to do anything about it.

This was not my first contact with ebay regarding counterfeits or dubious sellers. My message wasn't "touchy feely" but to the point as stated, as I have dealt with them before and they don't respond well to "touchy feely" inquiries. Our office has worked a few major ebay criminal fraud cases, and get inquiries every week about fraudulent purchases on ebay. Believe me, there are many honest, hard working buyers on ebay who fall prey to fraud every day there. Not all of these victims were "looking for a deal," but instead, they were just taken advantage of by a seller that was afforded the opportunity to commit fraud on ebay.

(Also, please read Orchi's thread -Is eBay a SAFE HARBOUR for Sellers of FAKE "Rolex Tudor" watches...??? in the WATCHOUT Section

3/31/08

Dear ------------- (message from Cobb's office to springer),

Thank you for your recent email to Bill Cobb in regard to counterfeit Rolex items listed on the site. He has asked that I review your email and respond on his behalf.

As you know, eBay does not participate in the buying or selling of any items. We provide a venue for members to sell and buy a variety of merchandise in a variety of formats. The format we use is similar to that of a newspaper classified advertisement section.

Because we are not involved in the actual transaction, we're unable to inspect or verify any item that sellers list on eBay. We simply provide a marketplace for buyers and sellers to purchase and sell items.

The only information we have to review, is the information that sellers provide for us in their listings. If an item doesn't clearly violate the law or eBay policy, we rely on government or law enforcement agencies to verify if the sale of an item is against the law.

If an item does violate either the law or our policy, we will immediately take action upon review. That being said, with millions of listings on the site at any given time, we are simply unable to review each and every listing while they are active on the site.

In our best efforts, our Trust and Safety department has filters in place to try and identify violating listings before they reach the site.
We also have filters that notify sellers of potential violations while they are listing in the "Sell Your Item" form. I understand these filters are not perfect, however, we will continue to work to refine them to provide sellers with more knowledge regarding listing policies.

As we cannot actively police the site, we also rely on members of the community to alert us to potentially violating listings. If there are listings that are concerning to you, I would encourage you to report those to us for review. To do so, simply click the "Report this item"
link at the bottom of the item page. I would also encourage you to contact the rights owner in question (Rolex). Rights owners can have infringing listings removed through the eBay Verified Rights Owner
(VeRO) program.

You'll find a list of rights owners and contact information, as well as information about infringing items, in the VeRO Program About Me pages.
To view the list, please go to:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/vero-aboutme.html

I understand your frustration regarding this matter and apologize for the inconvenience it caused you.

Sincerely,

Terri
Office of the President




Original Message Follows (from springer to Mr Cobb):
-------------------------

Dear Mr Cobb,

I, as well as others, have reported to ebay, several counterfeit Rolex
watches that have been redialed as 'Rolex Tudor' and continually end up
being sold on ebay. There is no such watch and never has been. Rolex,
who produced the Tudor brand of watches, never placed their name on the dial of a Tudor watch. This was done obviously by Rolex so consumers would not be confused into thinking that when purchasing a Tudor, that they were in fact purchasing a Rolex watch. Tudor, is not a model-type of
Rolex, but a totally different brand of watch, which contained different serial
numbers and movements, unrelated to the Rolex watches. Tudors was a
marketing ploy by Rolex to introduce the consumer to Rolex made watches without the substantially higher price associated with the Rolex brand watches.

Tudor watches carry their own serial numbers which are different than
Rolex watch serial numbers. In the past, there have been lawsuits over this
misrepresentation by sellers, and some have occurred because of sales on
ebay.

Your security department has been warned about this in the past, but
ebay sellers continue to sell the Tudor - Rolex dialed watches without any
repercussions from ebay.

Just as a Lexus is not a Toyota, a Tudor is not a Rolex. A Toyota Land
Cruiser re-badged illegally as a Lexus LX 470 is criminal and fraud, a
felony. This is what is being done with these watch dials, and many
buyers see the Rolex-Tudor dialed watches at substantially discounted prices and buy them, thinking they got a "deal on a Rolex on ebay."

Ebay has a legal responsibility here, and hopefully you or someone at
ebay, will start taking some of this fraud seriously. I don't know how you
can shield yourself from responsibility, while you continue to let it
happen after you have been notified of this problem in the past.

Feel free to contact me if you have any concerns or questions. I have
been in law enforcement 32 years, and it continues to amaze me, and many
others, how much more ebay could do to prevent this type of fraud, but instead ebay continues to turn a blind eye to the problem.


My Name

[tudorman8276]

....GREAT info and THANK YOU for sharing with the forum mbrs.

....as mentioned in my PM to you, COLLECTIVELY, we are a FORCE to be reconned with!!!

....I went blank...how do you spell "recconed"?????? Ha..Ha......

Stan.

[Dave S]

This Rolex / Tudor scam is also being performed here in Australia. The following Power Sellers are performing this trick.

Marlin57
Penny7034
davefrommayfairgalleries

[tudorman8276]

Originally Posted by Dave S

This Rolex / Tudor scam is also being performed here in Australia. The following Power Sellers are performing this trick.

Marlin57
Penny7034
davefrommayfairgalleries

....this way we can take action.

Stan.

[Orchi]

Err buddy Springer...thanks for sharing this...

Now Orchi feels your pain...

[Dave S]

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Rare-Rose-Gol...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Solid-Gold-RO...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/298-Gents-Sol...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/298-Gents-Sol...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Mens-1940s-9K...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Mens-S-S-1960...QQcmdZViewItem

These are all from Australian Power Sellers. Please report.

[Orchi]

Originally Posted by Dave S

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Rare-Rose-Gol...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Solid-Gold-RO...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/298-Gents-Sol...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/298-Gents-Sol...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Mens-1940s-9K...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Mens-S-S-1960...QQcmdZViewItem

These are all from Australian Power Sellers. Please report.

Err buddy Dave...thanks for highlighting those FAKE watches...

Please advise whether any attempts been made to report those FAKE watches to eBay Australia...?

IF so...was there any response from eBay Australia addressing to the same issue...?

[Dave S]

Orchi,

I have reported these items to ebay.au. I have only received the system generated response email to my reports.
I should attempt to find the contact details for a "person" who works at ebay.au

Dave

[Terry Newton]

I received a reply from my contact at E-Bay; "All watches you listed have been removed".

I just reported all of these to him directly as it is more difficult for me to get other country's listings removed. They are working on a method for me to be able to do this from any country's E-bay site.

These may not be off till Monday when my E-Bay contact gets back from the weekend.

Please don't flood me with thousands of these. I only have so much time in the day myself.

Terry Newton

[2careless]

It looks very weird that Rolex is not listed in ebay's Vero program... Maybe it's because of the lawsuit?

[springer]

Careless, I noticed that also and thought it was strange. Maybe they have a hook directly with ebay.

[Tombstone]

SLEAZE BAY a forum for crooks to sell stolen or fake goods nothing more.

[springer]

Tombstone, good analogy. They have provided a forum for many dishonest sellers to prey upon the honest, hardworking, trusting people of the world. They could do much more to clean up the fraud, but they don't because they don't have to...at this time.

Life is funny, what goes around always seems to come back full circle - especially when you don't expect it.

[stevemulholland3]

Originally Posted by 2careless

It looks very weird that Rolex is not listed in ebay's Vero program... Maybe it's because of the lawsuit?

Rolex is not a part of the vero program because they do not condone the re-sale of their watches on this format.to have a vero representative in their eyes would be like giving their o.k. to sell rolex in their venue.

[2careless]

Cool. spot on, thanks Steve.

[Lol-x]

If any of these "Rolex Tudor" watches were real surely there would be at least one original warranty certificate, or Rolex Service Centre certification, but alas there is none, because they are third party, Rolex unauthorised fabrications.

[Orchi]

Originally Posted by Lol-x

If any of these "Rolex Tudor" watches were real surely there would be at least one original warranty certificate, or Rolex Service Centre certification, but alas there is none, because they are third party, Rolex unauthorised fabrications.

Err buddy Steve...you are spot on with excellent observation...!

Please see if anyone can find any of the following provenance...in most of the eBay listings of either the so called "ROLEX" or "ROLEX TUDOR" watches...by this eBay PowerSeller - lajollajewelry - in their eBay Store :-

1. Rolex watch Reference #...
2. Rolex movement Reference #...
3. Pictures showing those Reference # between the lugs...or caseback covers.
4. Rolex identification n provenance papers...

No winning prize for the finders...

Oh btw...this item listed however by the same eBay PowerSeller - lajollajewry...looks to be genuine though.

Get the hint...?

[Terry Newton]

I reported the one Rolex/Tudor watch he had in his sales list.

I want the Porsche. That baby is mint.

Terry Newton

[toph]

i see another lawsuit coming on sooner or later.

[T5AUS]

Originally Posted by Dave S

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Rare-Rose-Gol...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Solid-Gold-RO...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/298-Gents-Sol...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/298-Gents-Sol...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Mens-1940s-9K...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Mens-S-S-1960...QQcmdZViewItem

These are all from Australian Power Sellers. Please report.

More power to everyone's arm in getting rid of the dam fakes, I too am enthusiastically reporting them, despite only always getting back the automated replies and nothing more.
I have to ask though Dave, I can see all the other listings you mention are fakes, but why are you saying the Mayfair Gallery ones are ?. I am not taking sides, but the first one of theirs even has Rolex impressed on the movement, so is it not a "Rolex Tudor". Could you please clarify for my future reference.

[Dave S]

Yes you are right about Mayfair Gallery's watches. I made a mistake. Their dials have not been "refurbished" to say ROLEX like the watches from the other sellers. I lumped them in with the others as they were described as "ROLEX TUDOR" and as ROLEX brand.
This could be a little deceptive to the first time Rolex buyer.
I believe them to be genuine Tudor watches. Calling them ROLEX is a bit cheeky.

[marlin57]

Is it a Fake,I would agree if,TUDOR wasn't on the dial as well as ROLEX,no deceite,its clearly discribed as a ROLEX TUDOR. Most seller's discribe a TUDOR as a ROLEX TUDOR,some Tudor watches,have case's signed Dennison made in England for ROLEX,. Some 9K Rolex Tudor watches i have sold have the Crown logo,ROLEX,& RWC,on the inside coverItem No.: 290250420107
.These watches i believe all originally had a winder with the crown logo on it. ROLEX changed the Tudor Rose Logo to a shield logo Not many buyer's relate to the Tudor Rose Logo "MEN.".At the end of the day it is a Watch sold by Rolex ,a Tudor model. I restore & sell a variety of Rolex & Tudor watches with customised dials.Would you buy a vintage restored Tudor with the Flower logo or the Crown Logo on the Dial.Once a Dial is refurbished it is no longer considered Original,no matter how well done,to the Fanatical Collector .The Fanatical collector only wants unrefurbished dialed watches,so what happens if refurbishment is required,who will buy.At this time i am reviewing whether to continue restoring the Tudor watches sold by ROLEX.There are other Rolex vintage watches to restore. If ROLEX sign the Tudor watches with Rolex ,use the crown Logo,then it is by Rolex. A Fake Implys that No Part is Rolex .I am a person restoring ,& bringing new life to tired & worn out watches,with many Happy Customers,I understand your Passion ,is it such a crime,many people customise HARLEY DAVIDSON motor cycles,Harley didn't sue but copied there ideas to Great Success.Regards Milan ,Ebay Seller MARLIN57

[marlin57]

Is it a Fake,I would agree if,TUDOR wasn't on the dial as well as ROLEX,no deceite,its clearly discribed as a ROLEX TUDOR. Most seller's discribe a TUDOR as a ROLEX TUDOR,some Tudor watches,have case's signed Dennison made in England for ROLEX,. Some 9K Rolex Tudor watches i have sold have the Crown logo,ROLEX,& RWC,on the inside coverItem No.: 290250420107
.These watches i believe all originally had a winder with the crown logo on it. ROLEX changed the Tudor Rose Logo to a shield logo Not many buyer's relate to the Tudor Rose Logo "MEN.".At the end of the day it is a Watch sold by Rolex ,a Tudor model. I restore & sell a variety of Rolex & Tudor watches with customised dials.Would you buy a vintage restored Tudor with the Flower logo or the Crown Logo on the Dial.Once a Dial is refurbished it is no longer considered Original,no matter how well done,to the Fanatical Collector .The Fanatical collector only wants unrefurbished dialed watches,so what happens if refurbishment is required,who will buy.At this time i am reviewing whether to continue restoring the Tudor watches sold by ROLEX.There are other Rolex vintage watches to restore. If ROLEX sign the Tudor watches with Rolex ,use the crown Logo,then it is by Rolex. A Fake Implys that No Part is Rolex .I am a person restoring ,& bringing new life to tired & worn out watches,with many Happy Customers,I understand your Passion ,is it such a crime,many people customise HARLEY DAVIDSON motor cycles,Harley didn't sue but copied there ideas to Great Success,Where did the Springer come from.Regards Milan ,Ebay Seller MARLIN57

[springer]

Marlin57, your reasoning and post is so far off that I really don't know how to respond to it. You sound like the others in trying to justify something that isn't or never was. Tudor IS NOT A ROLEX MODEL, it is a specific brand of watch owned by Rolex.

Lastly, adding Rolex to the dial of the watch is fraud, trademark infringement. There is no such dial that appeared on the Tudor. This is not redialing, or refinishing. Refinishing is bringing a dial back to what it was originally, not changing it to something that it never was.

What does customizing a Harley, or anything for that matter, have to do with my post. Adding fake-branded or counterfeit Harley parts to a bike is still wrong and illegal. My post concerns adding fake parts to make something appear as it isn't or never was intended to be. The fake Rolex-Tudor dials are added for one reason, to make you think the watch is a Rolex thereby adding value to the watch.

There is nothing wrong with customizing anything. It adds your own personalization to a specific item that you enjoy. Adding Harley parts to a Buell and passing it off as a Harley, or calling a Buell a Harley is ridiculous, even though Harley owns Buell Motorcycles. This same analogy can be applied to the Rolex and Tudor line of watches. Seperate brands, with different models, serial numbers and so on.

[stevemulholland3]

spot on springer!!

[tudorman8276]

Originally Posted by stevemulholland3

spot on springer!!

....spot on as usual, John boy.

Stan.

[Orchi]

Err buddies...Orchi too can't say it any better than buddy Springer...!

[marlin57]

Hi Springer, After carefull consideration,apart from a few already refurbished Tudor Watches,in the future when i will restore Vintage Tudor Watches,i will have the Dial refurbished with the Shield logo & signed Tudor on the dial,this is the current format on the TUDOR watches ,Sold by ROLEX ,i hope this will be satifactory to the ROLEX & Ebay Community, Ebay Seller,Marlin57

[Orchi]

Originally Posted by marlin57

Hi Springer, After carefull consideration,apart from a few already refurbished Tudor Watches,in the future when i will restore Vintage Tudor Watches,i will have the Dial refurbished with the Shield logo & signed Tudor on the dial,this is the current format on the TUDOR watches ,Sold by ROLEX ,i hope this will be satifactory to the ROLEX & Ebay Community, Ebay Seller,Marlin57

Err buddy Marlin57...please forgive Orchi's bad manners...for missing to welcome you to this forum.

Where may Orchi ask are you posting from...?

Also if Orchi may ask...which Dial plate would you use in your restoration of the Dial...or do you only use the original Dial plate that comes with the watch?

Please advise...

[marlin57]

hi,& thankyou, Orchi, i do,strip dials to bear metal,& customise dials using Roman numerals,Arabic numbers,in Black & White ,some with original raised numbers,depending on pitting which can show up after repaint,these are 50+ year old watches,not desired.I live in Geelong Australia.
Further research ,Rolex did have a close association with the Tudor brand ,haveing the same founder.So you can find a Rolex Crown,Rolex signed bracelet ,or Caseback,Rolex signed Cases inside the caseback,up until 1990,when Rolex have distanced themselves with the TUDOR brand.MARLIN57 Ebay Seller,