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17 September 2008, 04:07 AM
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#1 |
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Banned
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 2,934
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Questionable listing of 16550 EXP II with Cream Dial...non rail.
Err buddies...what Orchi brings here is the classic example of the much controversial debate about the highly sought after Transitional 16550 Explorer II with Cream "Rail" or "Non-Rail" Dials...which were produced in short period of time by Rolex between 1985 to 1988 or so...
But in here...Orchi does not want to dwell into the controversial debates... Nevertheless...amidst the controversial debates that have gone on for years since...most renown collectors have now come to some what of a common understanding...that... 1. A TRUE 16550 Exp II with Cream "Rail Dial" would have "SWISS - T<25" marking under the 6 o'clock White Gold rectangular marker... 2. ANOTHER TRUE(but believed to be in RARER numbers) 16550 Exp II with Cream "NON Rail" Dial would have "T SWISS <25 T" marking under the 6 o'clock White Gold rectangular marker... However...Orchi stumbled onto this listing by eBay Power Seller - Watch-Navi of HongKong...for a 16550 Explorer II watch which is claimed to be... "1987 Rolex Explorer II 16550 Cream Ivory Dial Non-Rail" "Here is an used Rolex Oyster Perpetual Date Explorer II stainless steel men's watch, cicra. 1987, ref.no. is 16550, serial no. is R387XXX, 100% original & authentic, the watch is in overall good condition # Dial = signed 100% original dial has changed to a nice cream / ivory colour and is in good condition, luminous marker with white gold bracket is in a nice yellowish patina, all writing is clean and visable, signed "SWISS T<25" at the bottom..." Now if one sees the CENTRE...between the top n bottom 2 lines of COSC plots markings...one would realise that the COSC plots are "Non Rail" type...meaning without a empty channel passing thru from top to bottom between the 2 lines... Then if one takes a closer look at the "SWISS - T<25" marking under the 6 o'clock marker...one would realize that...this Cream Non Rail Dial would have the WRONG Tritium marking on the Dial... Also if one takes a closer look n comparison at the other plots on the Dial...one would see the inconsistency of the markings n fonts...on the Dial... Finally when one takes a closer comparison of the quality of the hour markers which are supposed to be White Gold surround markers...one would also notice that the Tritium fillings are very much inconsistent...n downright UGLY...to begin with. Therefore...in Orchi's frank opinion...that 16550 Explorer II watch being listed in eBay with a Buy-Now price of USD12K or so...may have a complete FAKE Dial...!   http://cgi.ebay.com/1987-Rolex-Explo...QQcmdZViewItem For the sake of further close comparisons...Orchi shall post the following pictures of the REAL deals of "NON Rail" cream Dials...courtesy of VRF forum...n especially from buddy AAKViper...who is a renown watchmaker n very reputable collector of the Rolex vintage watches... NOTE: The 1st 2 pictures contain the CORRECT Real Deal on "Non Rail" n "Rail" Cream Dials... The last picture shows another example of debatable n questionable cream "Non Rail" Dial...! |
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17 September 2008, 04:42 AM
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#2 |
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2024 SubLV41 Pledge Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Real Name: jP
Location: Texas
Watch: GMT-MASTER
Posts: 17,309
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Orchi, the dial in question is either all or in part refinished and possibly counterfeit. I'm leaning more toward refinished. It definately is not original as stated by the seller.
A lot of questionable items in Hong Kong. They are sure busy over there trying to stay a step ahead of everyone.
__________________
Member of NAWCC since 1990. INSTAGRAM USER NAME: SPRINGERJFP Visit my Instagram page to view some of the finest vintage GMTs anywhere - as well as other vintage classics. |
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17 September 2008, 06:29 AM
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#3 |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Real Name: John
Location: Birmingham, UK
Watch: Panerai 219 Destro
Posts: 100
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Orchi, if I'm not wrong, a dial was originally cream only if the spacing between superlative chronometer and officially certified is even as seen on the watch on the left in the 2nd photo. The spacing on the watch on the right is different. This dial here was originally white and would've been turned cream by the artificial means of exposing it to the light. So, for this reason, the seller is not being honest.
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17 September 2008, 12:24 PM
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#4 |
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Banned
Join Date: Dec 2007
Real Name: steven
Location: tampa bay
Watch: 1680 18k sub
Posts: 6,672
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while I understand fully your point orchi,I personally am not qualified enough yet with this dial style to voice a confident opinion.but I will study them diligently until all becomes clear..
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17 September 2008, 01:14 PM
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#5 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Real Name: Terry Newton
Location: Michigan
Watch: Rolex TT GMT II c
Posts: 6,644
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I reported it as a possible misrepresentation.
Terry Newton
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Terry Newton; Superstar and Fake Sleuth   "Z" SS Date Submariner "Z" TT GMT-Master IIc |
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18 September 2008, 02:50 PM
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#6 |
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Banned
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 2,934
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Err buddy Terry...the relevant eBay listing of the questionable watch is still valid...on Buy-Now basis.
Just one click to bid...n a couple more to make payments...uh oh! Somebody who buys this watch...would be burnt in despairs...! The Dial has very likely been tampered with...n it can be construed as FAKE...!
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19 September 2008, 03:47 AM
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#7 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Real Name: Terry Newton
Location: Michigan
Watch: Rolex TT GMT II c
Posts: 6,644
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It is now invalid.
Terry Newton
__________________
Terry Newton; Superstar and Fake Sleuth "Z" SS Date Submariner "Z" TT GMT-Master IIc |
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22 September 2008, 03:26 AM
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#8 |
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Banned
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 2,934
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Err buddy Terry...hmmmm...Orchi nearly forgotten about this one...!
Thanks to eBay's swifter action with the recent renewed policies...the BAD watch...or so called "16550 Cream" has since been axed...! 
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7 July 2009, 07:18 AM
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#9 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London
Posts: 28
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Explorer II 16550 cream dial
Hi, I would really appreciate some help from the experts here:) I have just purchased a cream dial 16550, serial R from 1987. It is NON rail dial. The hands and hour markers have the black surrounds rather than the earlier white gold surrounds. Is this correct? I understand that the later 16570 had the black surrounds but with a brighter white dial. Was there a transition period in 1987 where the 16550 had the black surrounds with NON rail cream dial?
Many thanks. |
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31 October 2009, 12:52 AM
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#10 |
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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NYC
Watch: ya mawt!
Posts: 3,448
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Any info on the 16570 cream dial?
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18 August 2010, 10:14 AM
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#11 |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Real Name: Jason
Location: MD USA
Watch: 16550, IWC
Posts: 21
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18 August 2010, 07:37 PM
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#12 |
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Banned
Join Date: Oct 2009
Real Name: Tristan
Location: GIRONA , SPAIN
Watch: 116520/660/710/334
Posts: 7,147
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Good link , thanks !
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20 August 2010, 01:09 AM
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#13 |
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Banned
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 2,934
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Err buddies...sometimes it's good to bring up the old threads...
At this time especially... Please let Orchi try to tell another story... We all know... the MOST desirable Transitional 16550 Exp II... must have CREAM + RAIL White DIAL + WG surround markets(SWISS-T<25)... or CREAM White Dial + WG surround markers(T SWISS < 25 T)... a.k.a the IVORY Dial... Example of Transitional 16550 CREAM RAIL or Non-RAIL White Dial... courtesy of VRF Dial Archive...  [img]http://************/attachment.php?attachmentid=39496&stc=1&d=12215884 23[/img] So then we know... Transitional 16550 Exp II Black Dial...with WG surround markers(Wow!) BUT it is not so desirable...n certainly NOT as valuable... Example of 16550 Exp II with Black Dial "Rail"...with WG surround markers... courtesy of VRF Dial Archive...  We know also... the later successor 16570 Exp II with White Dial + Black surround markers... is NOT as desirable...despite some of these White Dial might turn into CREAMY colour... n NOT as valuable also... Example of 16570 Exp II with White Dial...+ Black surround markers. courtesy of VRF Dial Archive...  BUT IF one is desperate enough... he could make this... from 2 of the NOT so desirable 16550 Exp II Black Dial/16570 Exp II White Dial with Black surround markers... by taking out the 16570 White Dial...which might turn into CREAM color... n put aside the Black surround markers(from the 16570 White Dial)... Then take out the WG surround markers from the 16550 Black Dial... to put on the 16570 White Dial... After that...just installed the messed up Dial onto the Cal.3085 movement... n...into the 16550 CASE...!!! The guy didn't even have to switch the movement/bezel or hands... Voila...!!! this CRAP...  is then passed on to unsuspecting members... who would pay upto USD25K...during the peak time... for A MESSED up...16550 Exp II... with a MODIFIED n imitated...16570 Exp II with CREAM Dial... [img]http://************/attachment.php?attachmentid=39497&stc=1&d=12215885 81[/img] |
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20 August 2010, 01:55 PM
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#14 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Real Name: Andrew
Location: Indonesia
Watch: Rolex
Posts: 2,277
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wow.. orchi.. you have great eyes.... i'm just a newbie and can't really see anything wrong until you pointed out the reasons....
__________________
Baume & Mercier Riviera Rolex GMT II c, DJ 116234, Sub 16610, EXP 2 16570 Panerai 111 , 232 |
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20 August 2010, 02:14 PM
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#15 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: PNW
Watch: DS,BLNR,SubLV,DJ2
Posts: 8,123
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Thanks for the pointers, Orchi.
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20 August 2010, 02:23 PM
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#16 |
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Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
Real Name: Pav
Location: Manhattan
Posts: 11,495
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Very good info buddy Orchi!
Thanks for posting.
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20 August 2010, 08:37 PM
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#17 |
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Facilitator
Join Date: Nov 2005
Real Name: Steve
Location: Omnipresent
Posts: 33,564
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For sale in Japan from reputable dealer just over $10K:
creamEXII.jpg Ｒｅｆ．１６５５０ Serial９７ｘｘｘｘｘ、Ｃａｌ．３０８５ ３８ｍｍ Endlink５０１ Bracelet７８３６０ Official Rolex Japan Service March ２００６ I can't tell if it is original or not.....maybe not according to Orchi.
__________________
 Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be. ~Abraham Lincoln Nothing compares to the simple pleasure of a bike ride. ~John F. Kennedy ROLEXploitation - yeah I'm a victim  |
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20 August 2010, 09:10 PM
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#18 |
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Banned
Join Date: Oct 2009
Real Name: Tristan
Location: GIRONA , SPAIN
Watch: 116520/660/710/334
Posts: 7,147
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Again .. the black surround markers will not be of Orchi's liking . !
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21 August 2010, 08:19 PM
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#19 |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Real Name: Jason
Location: MD USA
Watch: 16550, IWC
Posts: 21
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My friend has a Explorer black spider-web (cracked) "Rail" dial watch in excellent condition with serial starts "9" which dated 1986-1987, no box, no papers. Is it worth collecting and how much do you think is worth?
Thanks for the help. Jason |
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23 August 2010, 04:10 PM
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#20 | |
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Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
Real Name: Pav
Location: Manhattan
Posts: 11,495
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Quote:
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24 August 2010, 12:20 AM
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#21 |
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Banned
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Newport Beach, CA
Posts: 8,391
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All I can say is that watchnavi has had a few questionable pieces over the years. BUYER BEWARE!
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24 August 2010, 06:22 AM
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#22 |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Real Name: Jason
Location: MD USA
Watch: 16550, IWC
Posts: 21
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[QUOTE=Orchi;2006005]Err buddies...sometimes it's good to bring up the old threads...
At this time especially... Please let Orchi try to tell another story... We all know... the MOST desirable Transitional 16550 Exp II... must have CREAM + RAIL White DIAL + WG surround markets(SWISS-T<25)... or CREAM White Dial + WG surround markers(T SWISS < 25 T)... a.k.a the IVORY Dial... Example of Transitional 16550 CREAM RAIL or Non-RAIL White Dial... courtesy of VRF Dial Archive... [img]http://************/attachment.php?attachmentid=39496&stc=1&d=12215884 23[/img] QUOTE] Hi Ochi, are "CREAM + RAIL White DIAL + WG surround markets(SWISS-T<25)... or CREAM White Dial + WG surround markers(T SWISS < 25 T)..." both are same value and same collectible in price? Thanks. Jason |
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24 August 2010, 12:08 PM
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#23 |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Real Name: Jason
Location: MD USA
Watch: 16550, IWC
Posts: 21
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Is this true: the common story used to be that the cream dials have to be rail dials (Rail dial means the Superlative…Chronometer & Officiall…Certified text is is centred or alligned)
But nowadays it also accepted that cream dials can be Non rail… (marked with “SWISS – T<25" or “T SWISS <25 T” ) The last cream dial is probably the e-serie with black plots… (with rail dial)" http://www.chronoarchive.com/watch/v...550_Cream_dial Now I am confused!!!??? |
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24 August 2010, 01:39 PM
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#24 |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Real Name: Jason
Location: MD USA
Watch: 16550, IWC
Posts: 21
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Lokk at this black surranding cream/ivory watch!
http://www.watchtalkforums.info/foru...orum/35915.htm NOW THE MORE I SEARCH, THE MORE I AM CONFUSED! WHAT IS THE REAL CREAM/IVORY EXPLORER!!!??? |
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24 August 2010, 02:05 PM
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#25 | |
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Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
Real Name: Pav
Location: Manhattan
Posts: 11,495
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Quote:
I was confused too... but I now know there are multiple correct cream dials variations. The most collectible being the cream dial 16550 'rail dial' even though the 16550 'non rail' dial is less common. |
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24 August 2010, 04:09 PM
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#26 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: mel(oz)/Yorks(uk)
Posts: 1,929
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Hi Jason...
16550 are one of my pet projects.. yours is fine ... a lot of people would only buy the rail dial, but yours with the t swiss < 25t is fine also with a little less demand and price , and even those who would only buy the rail would admitt it is OK... you seem to have paid a fair price for a non rail so all is good. would look better with a 165550 style insert though rather than 16570 style. past that i stick to my opinion that there was one SMALL batch of cream dials with black plots around e series.and none with swiss < 25t.. but that that someone has found a good way of messing with the coloring on non cream dials for both swiss < 25t wg version and later black plot watches ... we have seen evidence that the plots can be removed and refitted and with this being possible and how many of these started to appear ( mostly out of japan) that is why people will stick to rail dials as they KNOW they are legitimate. |
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1 October 2010, 01:09 PM
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#27 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 117
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Please help
Here are the facts: I bought a new R16570A from a AD in 1992. The watch requested was a white dial and when it arrived it was in Black. The AD replaced the dial with a white one and it was noted on the bill of sale. From what I know the dial is a "rail" type with a even space between both lines and has black marker boarders and "swiss -T<25". The dial has since turned a ivory / cream color. What exactly do I have?
Thanks for your help. MWC |
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24 November 2016, 02:26 AM
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#28 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Lion Land
Watch: Dad's JLC Memovox
Posts: 15
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Hi guys, I happened to come across this thread while hunting for a 16550. Was this the same watch that Watch-Navi was trying to sell in 2008?
http://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/1985-Role...4AAOSwLnBX2-ls Cheers J |
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