"ORIG ROLEX DESIGN " on a 1966 sub?

[OmegaBear]

I was looking at this 'project' sub from the mid-60s which has the post-82 "orig rolex design " instead of the earlier "registered design ".
The serial number (1.4m) corresponds to the caseback date inscription of 66, the 1520 movement is proper, etc, so very unlikely IMHO this is a franken...
The watch took a trip to RSC sometime in the late 80s or early 90s and got the sterile service replacement dial and hands...(hence my interest in it as a project )
Does Rolex also correct buffed out case engravings or would this have been an eager watchmakers bad job?

[U5512]

What was the serial number on the case? Perhaps the mid case was replaced by Rolex when they deemed unusable (rust or heavily pitting). From what I heard, Rolex replacement mid case typically has 4.4 million serial number. That might explain why "orig rolex design" on the case.

[OmegaBear]

it's 14xxxxx, in the 1.4 million range..
very interesting if this is indeed a RSC service replacement midcase, originally 4.4 million range..that they just re-engraved the first 4 into a 1?

[MorningTundra]

Really curious to see your project got any pictures?


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[OmegaBear]

Sure. Sorry about that. Here's the serial and the reference engravings, along with the somewhat mysterious and not period proper "orig rolex design ". I like the fonts on the serial and, again, corresponds perfectly to the caseback date inscription and the movement within. On second look, the "5513" looks re-engraved too?

[Kingface66]

Pictures not showing up

[OmegaBear]

Originally Posted by Kingface66

Pictures not showing up

sorry, had to convert .png to .jpg file extensions and had to go to my laptop for that.

[mattedialdoc]

I'm no expert but I've seen engravings like this from the replica "dark side". Others will chime in but I have concerns.


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[OmegaBear]

Originally Posted by mattedialdoc

I'm no expert but I've seen engravings like this from the replica "dark side". Others will chime in but I have concerns.


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Appreciate all the feedback.
All of it concerns you or just the "orig rolex design"?

[jdog111578]

Originally Posted by mattedialdoc

I'm no expert but I've seen engravings like this from the replica "dark side". Others will chime in but I have concerns.


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Agreed. They look a little too neat and very reminiscent of these "dark side" cases Ive seen.

[OmegaBear]

So the mid case itself iffy? Wouldn't the rep boys know something very well known like the registered vs orig rolex on the lugs?

[mattedialdoc]

Originally Posted by OmegaBear

So the mid case itself iffy? Wouldn't the rep boys know something very well known like the registered vs orig rolex on the lugs?

Hmmm don't know, but google Yukiwatch. I don't like that case. Doesn't make sense.


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[OmegaBear]

Originally Posted by mattedialdoc

Hmmm don't know, but google Yukiwatch. I don't like that case. Doesn't make sense.


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gotcha. since i dont deal with the 'replacement parts' community, it was news to me.
just looked them up and the funny thing is, their own '5513 case' has the period proper 'registered design' engraving! LOL
and FWIW, their 'caseback' engraving is nothing like the one on this watch and, at least to my non-expert eyes, their lugs engraving is not quite like on this one either.
i'm gonna reach out to my local rolex AD and ask would rolex have
corrected any faded engravings during service...
i'm personally still leaning against a replica midcase here but, if it turns out it is, just prolongs my little project one step of the way. that's life. :)

[mattedialdoc]

Caseback looks off too. I would pass on it.


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[OmegaBear]

Originally Posted by mattedialdoc

Caseback looks off too. I would pass on it.


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appreciate your feedback.

may i just ask what looks bad in the caseback? i see the difference in 'scuffiness' of the inscriptions-could the outer inscription of 'montres rolex sa' have been rubbed off by the (original butterfly, not obviously replaced by a later service part) automatic rotor?

im putting 'mine' next to these other four random 5513 casebacks from listings ive seen posted by trusted sources for visual comparison.

again, guys, i appreciate any and all input. im a relatively new to the rolex tool watch universe, having previously delved mostly in datejusts and such..

[subx]

fake case... sorry => pass

[Kiaraff]

Pretty sure it's a genuine case. Reference number is stamped correctly! Do you have some profile pictures?



http://www.watchesandart.com/rolex-s...mber-stamping/

[springer]

The forgers are making cases now that fool many, to include the folks at Rolex and many others to include the experts. This stamping is way too clean for the serial number range. Additionally, it doesn't even look like it was engraved by a panto-graph engraver.

I would visit a Rolex Service Center or a Rolex facility that can check the serial number for you.

Besides the engraving, the verbiage is incorrect as the OP mentioned, as well as having a service dial, there are way too many red flags for me.

[MorningTundra]

Originally Posted by mattedialdoc

Hmmm don't know, but google Yukiwatch. I don't like that case. Doesn't make sense.


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I googled and now wish I hadn't. Can't unsee that... left me feeling kinda dirty.


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[OmegaBear]

Originally Posted by Kiaraff

Pretty sure it's a genuine case. Reference number is stamped correctly! Do you have some profile pictures?



http://www.watchesandart.com/rolex-s...mber-stamping/

that's amazing...that engraving in that link is about just like on 'my' watch!
so, now i know where likely this watch was eviscerated by rolex-in manilla?

as for the (mid)case itself, after discussing it with my watchmaker (40-plus years of experience, rolex- and omega-certified), he thinks this is a service replacement case, most likely replaced when everything else (dial, hands, insert, rotor) was swapped out by rolex. the serial was engraved anew, but the new design nomenclature (orig rolex design) was left on the other side of the case. he told me back in the 80s and 90s, they just worked around the clock to get watches out as quickly as possible, not really taking care of keeping it period correct or anything close.

as for the caseback, while i agree its not the prettiest one out there, in my most humble opinion it doesnt look anything like on that replica parts site (i dont want to mention their name anymore, as fakers deserve no name recognition). possible the 'montres rolex sa' line was rubbed out by the original, now replaced, butterfly rotor? anywho, i dont see a fake here, as those i saw on that site were nice, clean and uniform. as you would expect a fake to be.

speaking of ghost bezels and such, how about a ghost watch...they gutted this guy out at RSC real good. i can still work with it though...preparing to sever a limb or two as we speak to be able to pay for an original, vintage, period proper, dial and handset.

[subx]

you can convince yourself by listening to other people's "advice" to justify what you want, but the fact remains this is a fake case, not a service case.

I prefer not to enter into a discussion war about the tell tales signs of why it is fake, as that would only fuel the fakers knowledge, but in no way is this case genuine.

once again, very sorry for the bad news.

[Kingface66]

Just to update where you're at: You're going to go through with this project where you have a case that is considered fake, and will source all of its other components (save for the movement), including a dial from 1966, correct hands to match the dial, bezel and period correct insert?

[Kiaraff]

Your case is just fine, service mid case with old serial engraved.
There are no facts given that the case is fake only assumptions.

I see a correct reference Engraving, correct profile and lugs.
Let me see an aftermarket Rolex 5513 case set with the same reference font!

Some words from Marcello Pisani RIP

replacement cases.. June 20 2009, 1:07 AM

are not ONLY in the usual 4 mill. range ( from around 4.3 to ..... ) : there are also cases replaced
in the '90 with the old case number ( altough with the same fonts used in those years and the
words ORIGINAL ROLEX DESIGN instead of REGISTERED DESIGN ).

[OmegaBear]

Once again, ty everyone for the feedback. That's why I love this forum.

[jdog111578]

Originally Posted by Kiaraff

Your case is just fine, service mid case with old serial engraved.
There are no facts given that the case is fake only assumptions.

I see a correct reference Engraving, correct profile and lugs.
Let me see an aftermarket Rolex 5513 case set with the same reference font!

Some words from Marcello Pisani RIP

replacement cases.. June 20 2009, 1:07 AM

are not ONLY in the usual 4 mill. range ( from around 4.3 to ..... ) : there are also cases replaced
in the '90 with the old case number ( altough with the same fonts used in those years and the
words ORIGINAL ROLEX DESIGN instead of REGISTERED DESIGN ).

While I won't comment to this one, you be surprised whats out there and available. Ive seen quite a few that would get by 95% of the folks on the forums.

[mattedialdoc]

Originally Posted by jdog111578

While I won't comment to this one, you be surprised whats out there and available. Ive seen quite a few that would get by 95% of the folks on the forums.

This was my point also. Seems like we have some exceptionally knowledgeable members pointing out some concerning irregularities. I wish you the best in the project , that's why I want you to have a watch that doesn't start with questionable provenance.


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