Buying PAM w/o instruction & warranty booklet

[Gigaton Punch]

Hey guys,

I'm thinking about purchasing a PAM that comes with neither the instruction nor warranty booklet. The price is accordingly lower by about 400. Seller is well-regarded on this forum, so I don't have any concerns.

I will not be trading this watch. Any reason why I should not take this bite?

[Stack]

If you don't have any desire to ever resell it and it will stay with you and it's from a reputable person then I'm fine with it. I haven't seen my box, papers, or anything since the day I bought my Panerai. I have them all but definitely not a deal breaker if the price is according to those things missing.

[fullcourt]

if the seller is top notch it shouldn't matter....

[nick c]

If this makes you happy go for it.

[Al1969]

Originally Posted by Gigaton Punch

Hey guys,

I'm thinking about purchasing a PAM that comes with neither the instruction nor warranty booklet. The price is accordingly lower by about 400. Seller is well-regarded on this forum, so I don't have any concerns.

I will not be trading this watch. Any reason why I should not take this bite?

I'd not be overly concerned unless you 'flip' watches or there's a chance you'll need to sell it.
Remember, it may be tougher for you to sell it as a 'unknown' seller and take a bigger hit than $400. Were you told what happened to the papers?
Which model Pam?

[Gigaton Punch]

Originally Posted by Al1969

I'd not be overly concerned unless you 'flip' watches or there's a chance you'll need to sell it.
Remember, it may be tougher for you to sell it as a 'unknown' seller and take a bigger hit than $400. Were you told what happened to the papers?
Which model Pam?

I was not told what happened to the papers. It's a PAM 233.

[Al1969]

Originally Posted by Gigaton Punch

I was not told what happened to the papers. It's a PAM 233.

I see. Well it's up to you to decide what the papers are really worth. Is it a known seller?
The 233 it's a great reference. What series? Here's mine.
Good luck deciding.

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by Al1969

I'd not be overly concerned unless you 'flip' watches or there's a chance you'll need to sell it.
Remember, it may be tougher for you to sell it as a 'unknown' seller and take a bigger hit than $400. Were you told what happened to the papers?
Which model Pam?

Originally Posted by Gigaton Punch

I was not told what happened to the papers. It's a PAM 233.

Al1969 makes a great point. I thought the same until I saw you were considering a 233. Since there will always be a market for the 233, I would go for it if I were sure that I was getting a good deal.

A reasonable substitute for "papers" will be service documentation, assuming you service it at some point. As for the warranty booklet, who cares, except those that "need" a full set.

[Ruud Van Driver]

Personally, I couldn't buy a used watch without box and papers and even then, I'd have to take a grown-up with me or have the piece independently verified.

For a start, I'm one of these OCD people that 'needs' a full set. Aside from that, my knowledge of watches is very limited and I'd be one of the last people on here capable of spotting a fake or a genuine piece that had been Franken'd.

[Quicksilver]

My only concern is that we are always being advised that there are some very good fake PAM's out there which can even fool reputable dealers and we should therefore only buy with box and full papers.

So its up to you but you might find re-selling tricky - I know you say now you wont want to trade but you need to give yourself the option. Perhaps see if you can negotiate a bigger discount if your heart is set on it. Also,have it serviced by Panerai as soon as possible as they will spot if it is suspect and you will still have time to get your money back. If all is fine on the service then the service papers will act as a guarantee of authenticity - good for your own peace of mind or if you decide to sell.

[Ruud Van Driver]

$400 is not much of a reduction for a watch w/o papers? Or am I going overboard here?

[Quicksilver]

Originally Posted by Ruud Van Driver

$400 is not much of a reduction for a watch w/o papers? Or am I going overboard here?

I agree Ruud. There should be a bigger reduction as the purchaser is taking on all the risk here.

[1William]

Without revealing the price the seller is asking for the 233 it is hard to understand the deal. If the discount is great and they are knocking another $400 off then maybe. If it is $400 off what the going price for a pre-owned 233 minus $400 it is not worth it. The 233 is a sought after model but there are a lot in the market. I would have to have the box and papers. Contact a couple of Trusted Sellers and ask what the trade value is for one without the box and papers. Compare that to what you are paying and adjust accordingly.

[mfer]

In house without papers aren't as affect as much as an eta or Val movements. You just have to worry about the watch being stolen. If you are going with a major reseller (David, than, Oscar, Bruce, etc) you'll be covered if you find out it was stolen when you go to service you Panerai.

Now, servicing your Panerai is a whole other story.

[Sublovin]

Originally Posted by Ruud Van Driver

$400 is not much of a reduction for a watch w/o papers? Or am I going overboard here?

Surely you're kidding right? You think a work of worthless warranty card and instruction booklet is worth $400?
I have several Panerai in my collection which have booklets and warranty cards and I will gladly sell them to anyone for $400 each.

OP...Unless a super rare/collectible piece, I couldn't care less about complete sets. You said you plan to keep it, so it shouldn't matter at all. Save the cash.

[Sublovin]

Originally Posted by Quicksilver

I agree Ruud. There should be a bigger reduction as the purchaser is taking on all the risk here.

Curious, what risk is that?

[Quicksilver]

Originally Posted by Sublovin

Curious, what risk is that?

The risk that the watch is potentially not genuine. See my post above.


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[Quicksilver]

Originally Posted by Sublovin

Surely you're kidding right? You think a work of worthless warranty card and instruction booklet is worth $400?
I have several Panerai in my collection which have booklets and warranty cards and I will gladly sell them to anyone for $400 each.

OP...Unless a super rare/collectible piece, I couldn't care less about complete sets. You said you plan to keep it, so it shouldn't matter at all. Save the cash.

Its not about having the books but about documents certifying the authenticity of the watch. Unfortunately there are a lot of fakes around.

[Sublovin]

Originally Posted by Quicksilver

The risk that the watch is potentially not genuine. See my post above.


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Sorry, but the notion that because a watch has paperwork, it is genuine, is completely foolish and false. The counterfeiters of the world have figured out ways to fake a watch,they certainly have figured out ways to fake boxes, papers and warranty cards.
I have seen more fake boxes and warranty booklets than I can remember.
A watch is real because it is real...period. If a person doesn't trust their own knowledge they should have it inspected by an authorized professional.
Counterfeiters the world over are getting rich because the watch buying community has convinced themselves that if a watch is accompanied by worthless paper and boxes it is genuine.
If people wish to have a complete set because they see value in it, that's fine, but it means nothing regarding authenticity. Define buying a used watch ,I would have it inspected regardless of box and papers .

[Quicksilver]

Originally Posted by Sublovin

Sorry, but the notion that because a watch has paperwork, it is genuine, is completely foolish and false. The counterfeiters of the world have figured out ways to fake a watch,they certainly have figured out ways to fake boxes, papers and warranty cards.
I have seen more fake boxes and warranty booklets than I can remember.
A watch is real because it is real...period. If a person doesn't trust their own knowledge they should have it inspected by an authorized professional.
Counterfeiters the world over are getting rich because the watch buying community has convinced themselves that if a watch is accompanied by worthless paper and boxes it is genuine.
If people wish to have a complete set because they see value in it, that's fine, but it means nothing regarding authenticity. Define buying a used watch ,I would have it inspected regardless of box and papers .

With an older watch I can understand the lack of papers. I myself was comfortable buying my 1977 Sea Dweller without papers because I was buying from a highly respected and well known vintage dealer and I know its more difficult to find papers with an older watch.

But why are there no papers with a fairly recent watch? Either its not been taken care of or is possibly a replica.

I take your point that papers can be faked and all watches should be checked regardless of the presence of papers. But, replica watches are usually sold without replica papers. The presence of papers make it less likely that the watch is faked in my view.

[dnpina]

What I keep reading and seeing online is that Panerai fakes are so good that it can be almost impossible to discern them from genuine. I've read that this fact alone is hurting the resale value of Panerai. Especially making it difficult to trust a watch without full kit. Is it true that Panerai dealers won't verify authenticity of watches? Seems like the buying of a used Panerai has all kinds of potential for misteps.

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[Gigaton Punch]

Interesting responses. Thanks everyone.

Can anyone direct me to a reputable seller that is selling a PAM 233 (with am/pm dial) for a good price and willing to accept a trade? Many on here have said that there are a lot of 233s on the market, but I have only seen a limited number. Thanks!

[Sublovin]

Originally Posted by Quicksilver

But why are there no papers with a fairly recent watch? Either its not been taken care of or is possibly a replica.
.

Great question, and I think the answer is simple. Not everyone cares. As watch enthusiasts, we may find it hard to believe, but the overwhelming majority of luxury watch purchasers are not collectors. Just as I don't have the owners manual that came with my TV, or many don't have the owners manual that came with their car, a box and instruction book is useless to most.
Many people may stuff it away, but some simply toss it.
A good friend of mine purchased a new Breitling a year ago. I was at his house shortly after , and asked if he got any free goodies...he advised me that his wife had tossed the bag the watch came in shortly after.
Box, receipt, papers, free hat....everything.
It happens
I actually like buying without all the stuff because it's a good bargaining tool and way to save money. I don't need more empty boxes.....

[Quicksilver]

Originally Posted by Sublovin

I don't need more empty boxes.....

Yes - I have a wardrobe full of empty boxes. Its got to the stage where I wonder if I should be insuring the box and the papers as well as the watches.

[Sublovin]

Originally Posted by Quicksilver

Yes - I have a wardrobe full of empty boxes. Its got to the stage where I wonder if I should be insuring the box and the papers as well as the watches.

I hear ya.

[Al1969]

Originally Posted by Gigaton Punch

Interesting responses. Thanks everyone.

Can anyone direct me to a reputable seller that is selling a PAM 233 (with am/pm dial) for a good price and willing to accept a trade? Many on here have said that there are a lot of 233s on the market, but I have only seen a limited number. Thanks!

I think DavidSW has a couple listed on his site. Also , you can look at watchrecon and see what they have.

[dnpina]

I know Bernard watch has one 233 and I can tell you that they are generous and fair in trades.


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[Swiss Mad!]

Personally I wouldn't - you have to ask yourself WHY are the papers missing???
I mean who buys a watch costing several $000's and 'loses' all the paperwork???
Obviously it's your money, your choice, but for $400 I'd be looking elsewhere..

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