Help gmt master 1675 - 1961 pcg with non chapter ring dial - original dial?

[Youngrolex]

Hi All

I am asking for your opinions on this 1961 GMT Master 1675 PCG with NON Chapter Ring GILT Dial.

For Reference the Watch Has Original Chronometer Paperwork Dated NOVEMBER 1961

I have read previous threads on TRF in regards to the NON Chapter Ring Gilt Dial is too late for this PCG Case.

The serial on this watch is 665,XXX

This watch also looks like it has the extended 2.3MM Mini 24 Hour Hand As is sits on the dial where the Chapter Ring would usually be??

Is it possible the watch was produced with the Chapter Ring Hand Set but a NON Chapter Ring GILT Dial??

I have read some information on the GMTMASTER1675.COM website which in my opinions states that there were early PCG Cases with the NON Chapter Ring Dial In, You may tell me different!

LINK TO GMT Master 1675.com

https://gmtmaster1675.com/non-chapter-ring/

THIS IS THE TEXT ON THE WEB PAGE THAT MAKES ME WONDER

"The move away from chapter rings began and 1963 and while collectors continue looking back to them, Rolex hasn’t. The general layout of these dials, with minute hashes that extend to the edge of the dial, were maintained until the far past the end of the 1675 model line. These gilt non-chapter ring models, which span from 1963-1967, also incorporate the crown guard evolution that occurred in 1964. The Type A and B dials are exclusively of the older PCG / “Cornino” variety and the Type C dials are in the later rounded crown guard cases (though early Type C’s are seen in PCG cases)."


They are not the best Images so apologies.

Can we finally put this to bed as It is driving me nuts!

Many Thanks

APOLOGIES FOR POSTING IN THE GENERAL DISCUSSION!

[springer]

Dial has been changed as well as the super fat font insert which came much later.

[Youngrolex]

Originally Posted by springer

Dial has been changed as well as the super fat font insert which came much later.

Thank you for the clarification, so why do I see so many for sale that have a PCG Case and the non Chapter Ring Dial? because they are 1963, then this is acceptable?

[rootbeer7]

Originally Posted by Youngrolex

Thank you for the clarification, so why do I see so many for sale that have a PCG Case and the non Chapter Ring Dial? because they are 1963, then this is acceptable?

Probably to increase prices by having all the desirable components on one timepiece!!

[watchcrank]

Some dials without chapter ring is a "swiss" only marked at 6:00 and usual serial number is within the 1.0, 1.1 range. GMT's seem to have a large variation in case serial numbers so dating the case back is important. See JP's primer on GMT dials for excellent information.

[ahantel]

Originally Posted by Youngrolex

Thank you for the clarification, so why do I see so many for sale that have a PCG Case and the non Chapter Ring Dial? because they are 1963, then this is acceptable?

The dials changed from chapter ring to non-chapter ring before the cases changed from PCG to rounded crown guards. I've seen examples without CR's as early as 875xxx but not near the 6xxxxx range.

If the current dial is in good condition you may be able to find someone to trade for a CR dial (plus cash on your end) but it will be hard.

[Youngrolex]

Guys thanks so much for the information it's been very helpful.

I have decided not to go for the watch.

So I will keep looking for the Correct watch for me

[Youngrolex]

Ahantel thanks for the information on the serial ranges! That's quite interesting.

We are talking nearly 58 years ago I suppose anything would have been possible, Rolex may well have used some non Chapter ring dials In earlier PCG cases than what is said. If they had a case hand set and non Chapter Ring Dial whose to say they did not put them all together.

Could it be that the watch originally had a radium Dial and it was changed when sent back into Rolex for time adjustment or other issues?? As there was big issues around radium dials?

We will never know, archieved service records would be great, but that will never happen!!

Hopefully this thread will make other people aware and make the right decision when looking at these models

[springer]

Originally Posted by Youngrolex

Ahantel thanks for the information on the serial ranges! That's quite interesting.

We are talking nearly 58 years ago I suppose anything would have been possible, Rolex may well have used some non Chapter ring dials In earlier PCG cases than what is said. If they had a case hand set and non Chapter Ring Dial whose to say they did not put them all together.

Could it be that the watch originally had a radium Dial and it was changed when sent back into Rolex for time adjustment or other issues?? As there was big issues around radium dials?

We will never know, archieved service records would be great, but that will never happen!!

Hopefully this thread will make other people aware and make the right decision when looking at these models

While anything is possible, it also has to be probable and in this case I vote no. Just my opinion based on owning many, many GMTs and other vintage Rolex. There are many cobbled together watches out there, whether it is to enhance the valueof the watch or replace a part that is not easily obtainable.

[Autavian]

Originally Posted by Youngrolex

Thank you for the clarification, so why do I see so many for sale that have a PCG Case and the non Chapter Ring Dial? because they are 1963, then this is acceptable?

I’ve actually seen many and owned a few 1675s and 5513 non chapter ring gilt dials in PCG cases. After some research it appears that this was a transitional phase. IMO this dial case variation is acceptable.

[gsg]

Originally Posted by springer

Dial has been changed as well as the super fat font insert which came much later.

What is then the original insert for a pcg? thanks!

[Youngrolex]

Originally Posted by gsg

What is then the original insert for a pcg? thanks!

what does an original PCG Insert look like?

[Youngrolex]

Lets get some more opinions on this Thread.....

PCG Chapter Ring or NON Chapter Ring??!!

No One can prove it can they?

[springer]

Originally Posted by gsg

What is then the original insert for a pcg? thanks!

A regular old fat font.

[stewester]

I have seen some watches around the 1M serial with PCGs and non-chapter ring dials, usually Swiss only dials, but the occasional T <25 dial. A 600k serial however is too early for such a dial in my opinion and it would have originally come with a chapter ring dial.

[gsg]

Originally Posted by Youngrolex

what does an original PCG Insert look like?

I believe this is the right one (see below), maybe Springer can confirm:

PCG1.jpg

[chows99]

Today I learnt that there is old and newer fat font. Curious to know what's the nuances between this 2 as I am looking for a fat font to match my mk1. Thanks for sharing.

[linesiders]

Originally Posted by Youngrolex

Lets get some more opinions on this Thread.....

PCG Chapter Ring or NON Chapter Ring??!!

No One can prove it can they?

You did have one of the most knowledgeable GMT guys comment on your post

[springer]

Originally Posted by chows99

Today I learnt that there is old and newer fat font. Curious to know what's the nuances between this 2 as I am looking for a fat font to match my mk1. Thanks for sharing.

It' called super fat font (SFF) and fat font. The fonts of the SSF are noticeably fatter than the fat fonts. The opening on the top of the 8s are almost solid due to the fatter fonts on the SSF. Just like all the bezel insert variations with the vintage Submariners, there are also variations with the red-back GMT inserts.

Below is a super font font and another photo with two fat fonts depicting front and backs. The super fat font insert, which is resting on the blue vintage oiler, clearly has fatter fonts when compared to the two fat font inserts.

[chows99]

Thanks so much to @springer who once again stepped in to provide an educational post!

[Youngrolex]

Originally Posted by linesiders

You did have one of the most knowledgeable GMT guys comment on your post

Yes I did indeed realise this and took the information to make my decision not to buy the watch.

It is always nice to see other opinions or even if someone has had similar dealings on this Case Change over period as it is a vague area of what went with what.

[Youngrolex]

Originally Posted by chows99

Thanks so much to @springer who once again stepped in to provide an educational post!

Agreed!

One thing That keeps coming up which is bugging me massively is the correct hands used with the Gilt chapter ring and non Gilt chapter ring dials??!!

Is it true that all Gilt dials should have a small Mini Hand?

cheers

[Youngrolex]

Originally Posted by gsg

I believe this is the right one (see below), maybe Springer can confirm:

Attachment 941373

GSG, Looks In Great Condition and the dial looks spot on compared to others I have seen

[Vlad]

Originally Posted by springer

Dial has been changed as well as the super fat font insert which came much later.

+1

Your dial, though beautiful, is completely incorrect for your serial number. ... and that's what count for a serious collector. Any deviation from original configuration moves the watch from super desirable collectible piece to "interesting, if the asking price is about the value of the parts" - because finding the correct original pieces will not be easy, and honestly, welll ... not ever likely.

[Youngrolex]

Originally Posted by Vlad

+1

Your dial, though beautiful, is completely incorrect for your serial number. ... and that's what count for a serious collector. Any deviation from original configuration moves the watch from super desirable collectible piece to "interesting, if the asking price is about the value of the parts" - because finding the correct original pieces will not be easy, and honestly, welll ... not ever likely.

Hi Vlad, Thanks for the message.

You are indeed correct, They are very hard to find.

I am sitting on a 1675 PCG from 1960 which I need the correct dial and hand set and then im all set, I also have some of the original paperwork for the watch.

How annoying not to have the dial and hands. If anyone has one FS please let me know

What are your thoughts on the question I asked regarding the 24 Hour Mini Hand on all Gilt Dial Models, Chapter ring or Non Chapter Ring?

Cheers Luke

[roh123]

Most likely this watch had a dial change at the first service in the mid 60’s. Dial and hands seems to be in very good condition and much nicer than the case. If I owned this piece I would look for a good watch with 1.2-1.6m serial that have a great case and a poor dial. Either gilt in bad shape or a matte dial. Then I would swap this dial to that case and sell the PCG watch with the less desirable parts. You would then have a top gilt watch.

Finding a mid 60’s watch with wrong dial is much, much easier and cheaper than trying to find a good chapter ring dial with correct matching hands.

[gsg]

Originally Posted by Youngrolex

GSG, Looks In Great Condition and the dial looks spot on compared to others I have seen

Not mine, just a picture from the web for reference.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by gsg

Not mine, just a picture from the web for reference.

The owner of that fantastic watch is lurking around here on the forum as well. One of the very best examples out there.