Who thinks the first movie James Bond watch was a Rolex Precision?

[delldeaton]

Forget for a moment that you're a WIS in the closing months of 2008, and that you've forgotten more about watch trivia than most watch owners will ever care to learn.

Instead, it's about the same season, but the year is 1962. James Bond novels are popular, but the next step for you is going to be in seeing that character on the big screen for the first time. Sean Connery is 007 and the movie is Dr. No.

Fascinatingly, in the well-orchestrated reveal, you see the very first James Bond watch before you see James Bond himself! And here it is, from a screen capture I made and Posted last April.



Other images are included on a related analysis I did along with Posting the images. LINK I've labeled it the "Sylvia Trench" watch to differentiate it from the Rolex Submariner in that same film.*

Now look at this image from You Only Live Twice, a handful of Eon-produced films later. A similar looking watch is there again.



As I pointed out in my Blog on Sunday, most folks either miss the fact that James Bond is featured wearing a watch at all in this film, or they insist or assume it must be a Rolex Submariner "just because." LINK But if this watch, which I call the "Osato Chemical" watch (based on where it's first seen in You Only Live Twice) is in fact the Sylvia Trench watch, then that certainly suggests somewhat more of a commitment to this timepiece than any argument that the watch from the scenes in Dr. No were perhaps continuity errors.

In fact, if, as one researcher says, Eon producers felt that James Bond had to wear a Rolex for his watch, then, irrespective of who provided which watch and when, wouldn't this watch have to have been a Rolex as well? I mean, you can't say "it needed to be a Rolex" in one place, but not in another, right?

Makes for a fascinating and as yet almost totally unexplored line of inquiry into the matter. As I've argued in the past, the James Bond watch selection can be key to the characterization of James Bond: So assumptions, Ian Fleming's intent, and the message audiences will receive are all at play here. Lack of a diver's watch may not mean anything in terms of 007's actual military service (as far as the fictional background is concerned); but it opens the door to considering a more subtlely presented agent, a man who's moved beyond that - and who is sophisticated enough to adjust for different circumstances, who doesn't wear his resume at his shirt cuff.

It also brings a lot of Rolex owners to the party here, even if they don't have sports models!

Could we be looking at a Rolex Precision from c1962 here?

________________
*Okay, who am I kidding here? I call it the Sylvia Trench watch because of that scene shot from a low angle w/ her legs dominating the image, playing golf (talk about combining the passions of Ian Fleming!), w/ Bond coming through the door to find her there - wearing nothing but his dress shirt.

[Beecher]

I would think he would have more than one. I could imagine this personal watch being a precision, and his mi6 issue watch being a sub, and he wears them depending on the situation at hand. He certainly loves his toys, so why would we assume he only has one watch, most of us have more than one watch, even if only one of them is a Rolex grade watch.

[Tools]

Could be that when the movie was produced, the character wasn't developed to the "issue watch" stage, and whatever was on Bonds wrist was the actors private time-piece..

From those shots, I think he is wearing a 1962 Omega Seamaster with an automatic 560 date movement... Much more popular than the Rolex Precision at the time..




Maybe not....

[f16570]

Let the games begin. Omega or Rolex?????????????????????????

[Parachrom]

Then again, we could write the honourable member of Scottish parliament at his permanent home in the bahamas and ask the question. Who kows, he may be tickled pink and answer.

[buz-lh]

Could you ask him to push his sleeve up a bit, I swear it's a PP Calatrava.

[delldeaton]

Originally Posted by Tools

Could be that when the movie was produced, the character wasn't developed to the "issue watch" stage, and whatever was on Bonds wrist was the actors private time-piece..

From those shots, I think he is wearing a 1962 Omega Seamaster with an automatic 560 date movement... Much more popular than the Rolex Precision at the time.... Maybe not....

Shh! Be careful how loudly you say that. Some folks view the Cork and Scivally book as if it were Scripture on this matter.

Seriously, though: It's always been my contention that you have to do your own primary research, and that you have to look at something that surfaces in one place both in context, and in terms of how the same events are described from other perspectives, independently.

In this case, there's a book by John Cork and Bruce Scivally titled James Bond: The Legacy, Chapter 2, "The Phenomenon Begins." Here the authors are talking about the perspectives given from various sources as it related to bringing together the details of characterizing 007 via clothing. We know in some cases this was in outright disagreement with what Ian Fleming specified, as for example, the written 1962 description Mr. Fleming gave to Playboy regarding James Bond attire.

Notwithstanding, Cork and Scivally have production buyer Ron Quelch, reference to Terence Young, and, incredibly, given the Playboy letter, claims that the "tone was taken from Ian Fleming himself," page 36.

Yet you are correct that we can't get so wrapped up in "James Bond anecdotes" and WIS-ology that we forget that there's an added context in "the culture of how films got made in the early 1960s." Actors did come to parts with their own clothing and such. And James Bond was hardly a proven commodity in films, so it's not like they were throwing money at the production. Even the oft-repeated story about producer Albert R. Broccoli having provided his personal watch to the production is told in the singular. If there were two watches, and supposedly Rolex would supply none, and cost was a prohibitive factor to purchasing a Rolex....

Interesting.

Not sure that I'm ready to go down this path with you right now. But neither do I see anything that supports shutting it down out of hand as a consideration. Thanks!

[Rolexshirts]

I know that he has been wearing an Omega for the last many movies but in the start I would think a british uperclass spy would wear a Rolex

[Tools]

OK...

I will admit that I just threw the Omega thought out there with absolutely no background or support for saying such a thing... except that Omega and Rolex dynamics in the world of watches was very much different than today..

But just looking at the thin profile of the case, and knowing that it cannot possibly be a Sub, I figured that my guess could be a good one..

I will also admit though, since Bond, as well as Connery and Fleming, have the same roots that Rolex does.... It may very well be a classic Rolex dress watch.. After all, it would be the proper thing to have...

[Welshwatchman]

I'd agree with the Seamaster theory.

I also think he's got a prototype for the Iphone.

[Chris B]

Fictional character just like Sherlock Holmes, sorry guys i just don't get this 007 nonsense

[evy411nia]

Originally Posted by Chris B

Fictional character just like Sherlock Holmes, sorry guys i just don't get this 007 nonsense

I'm with you. I guess I don't have that much "man love" for 007. Although I would envy any man who hooked up with a babe named "Pussy Galore"

[buz-lh]

Originally Posted by evy411nia

I'm with you. I guess I don't have that much "man love" for 007. Although I would envy any man who hooked up with a babe named "Pussy Galore"

"I must be dreaming."

[Tools]

Originally Posted by Chris B

Fictional character just like Sherlock Holmes, sorry guys i just don't get this 007 nonsense

I think that the phenomenon is well worth studying, even if the infatuation is mystifying..

Since Omega started placing their products, the Bond Seamaster has become the top selling Omega and is now selling at 10 times it's pre-Bond rate.

I believe that if marketing studies were undertaken in the 60's, we might also see that same phenomenon for the Sub after it's appearance in 007 films...

[Gedanken]

Chris and evy, I'm not into the detail of this issue either, but as is the case with other subjects, it would be wiser to participate in discussions that interest you rather than break the flow of a discussion that other members are evidently enjoying.

What say you we just live and let d- ... uhhh, live, eh?

[Donald Grant]

Well, I thought this had long since been settled. First of all the Rolex was chosen for Bond in pre-production, and Rolex would not provide a watch to the production. Broccoli takes off his personal Rolex and provides it to the art department. The first scenes of Dr. No were exteriors filmed in Jamaica showing only the "big crown" Submariner. So, if you are a conventional thinker and think in a linear fashion, you would have to conclude that the watch Broccoli gave to the art department for Connery to wear was the "Big Crown" Submariner.

The gold watch scene in Dr. No was not filmed until months later, and there is no evidence that supports that the gold watch, as worn by Connery, was indeed a Rolex. It may have been a Rolex, but it might well have been another brand too. The fact that this watch watch seems to appear again in YOLT suggests to me that it may have been Connery's personal watch.

The gold watch is, to me, just an interesting anecdote. It's one of those trivia questions that you might ask at a cocktail party that begins "what was the first watch seen on Connery's wrist..." I began watching the Connery Bonds as a wee lad in re-releases in about 1969 or there abouts. What captured my imagination was the Submariner Connery wore, not the gold watch. I dare say most people are interested in the Connery Bond Submariner, not the unspecified gold watch because it is not memorable.

Nevertheless, if you are a big Connery fan, I'm sure it would be quite possible to ID the gold watch from non-Bond publicity stills. Perhaps it is a Rolex, but either way, I'm betting it was Connery's personal watch.

DG

[delldeaton]

Sorry to have dropped off this Thread for a bit. Actually, I was working on a James Bond watch-related project that's rather exciting in and of itself, but a bit removed from the reason I'd started this Thread. So I won't derail things.

Originally Posted by Tools

I think that the phenomenon is well worth studying, even if the infatuation is mystifying..

Since Omega started placing their products, the Bond Seamaster has become the top selling Omega and is now selling at 10 times it's pre-Bond rate.

I believe that if marketing studies were undertaken in the 60's, we might also see that same phenomenon for the Sub after it's appearance in 007 films...

As far as any "infactuation" goes, in my mind it's simply one way in which folks organize their interest in watches. If you think about the current display of Presidential timepieces at the NAWCC Museum, you have both a cut through history in terms of, in this case, George Washington through Gerald Ford; and you have the personalities and the personal touch of individual pieces. Had lunch w/ a fellow this afternoon who said something interesting by way of differentiating our wristwatches from clocks - even those in our living rooms, bedrooms, offices, et cetera. They are more intimate, more connected and reflecting of our personality.

"James Bond" is just another one of those hooks, as far as I'm concerned.

re The sales impact of 007 on Omega, I saw something like that in the current WatchTime supplement (which may also be what you're referring to here). I think this was referring specifically to the quartz Seamaster in GoldenEye; if so, that was sorta locked down in time and context. I'd think it would be harder to associate a Bond impact on Rolex from the 1960s for a couple of reasons. First, no concerted ad effort to leverage the connection. Second, it was a time when so much other stuff was going on w/ Rolex, eg, coming off sporting and diving successes of the 1950s.

Notwithstanding, an interesting question.

Originally Posted by Gedanken

Chris and evy, I'm not into the detail of this issue either, but as is the case with other subjects, it would be wiser to participate in discussions that interest you rather than break the flow of a discussion that other members are evidently enjoying.

What say you we just live and let d- ... uhhh, live, eh?

Thanks for this.

Not every subject here immediately floats my boat (although a good deal more than James Bond certainly do, as folks here know). But even when they don't, I always try to respect others' passions for the subject. Heck, sometimes I click through and actually get hooked after a page or two of the discussion!

The thing that's increasingly fascinated me as the years have gone on is how much has been left unexamined, or been missed, or too heavily relied upon assumptions about histories that go back four or five decades now. As I've said elsewhere, Dowling, Hess, Skeet, Urul, and Brozek all said the original Connery Rolex Submariner was a 6538 model; then the Daniel Craig angle comes up and we have a fascinating new chapter. Not merely because it "confirms" something (or refutes something else). But also because it adds to the study.

So I say "let's live it up" here!

[delldeaton]

James Bond: The Legacy only labels one watch as a Rolex in connection with its story of preparations for the first EON James Bond film, Dr. No, and it's the Sylvia Trench watch. (Sorry about the writing on the image: I actually own and read the books I cite, and, um, that means a lot of note-taking in the margins for research!)


Image above from James Bond: The Legacy, page 36; the caption is theirs.


Image above from Dr. No, in James Bond's home (I know: A bit lacking in credibility, that he could actually look at his watch in the face of how Ms. Trench had just presented herself!).

While this is only one source of James Bond history, a lot of folks rely upon it. It's the original source (though not always acknowledged) of the story that EON producer Albert R. "Cubby" Broccoli took off his Rolex and turned it over for filming when Rolex would not supply one.

It is this same book, these same authors, who have ID'ed the gold watch in the first scenes of Dr. No as a Rolex brand.

Here's more detail and the complete context, if you want to check it out for yourself. LINK

[Lol-x]

On the basis that this watch was a Rolex, and that appears to be an issue with some level of debate, is there any idea what was the model of this gold Rolex ?

[Parachrom]

I used to love Connery as James Bond, collected all sorts of trivia and goddies from around the world. Until one night he was giving an interview on a proghram, and stated " I dont like guns, I dont think anyone needs one, even though I made a living in the movies using one. well this anti gun rant caused me to pitch everything to do with connery. Another celebrity hypocrit

[delldeaton]

Originally Posted by Lol-x

On the basis that this watch was a Rolex, ... is there any idea what was the model of this gold Rolex ?

There have been a number of responses now that have come back to me, both by eMail and otherwise - some over time, and some more recently. Further, in addition to the "Precision" model option, I've seen some pretty strong arguments in favor of model 6090 and model 1011 Oyster Perpetual watches as candidates.

In no particular order, I'll simply pass along some of that here for comment. (Some appear to be current eBay Auction offerings, for what that's worth.)

Again, to me the process is as enjoyable as the ultimate outcome. Thoughtful discussions can also add layers of depth otherwise missed in simple lists and "here's the answer" things. There are some I might immediately dismiss right off the bat; but the I respect the sources, so I'm including them.

An interesting question that was raised, for example, is this: "If Rolex was not participating in Dr. No as a supplier, then what are we safe to assume about the Rolex provide by other means?" Maybe it wasn't all original, had been repaired, et cetera.

That said, I'd like for others to weigh in!

[builtforspeed]

As a devotee of both Rolex and Turnbull & Asser, and an admirer of Bond women, I for one appreciate your efforts on this and other threads, Dell.

There's an interesting continuity-type issue between what appears to be a pub still and the film frame you posted -- in one Bond appears in a dinner jacket and in the other he's in shirt sleeves.

Cheers,

Chris

[delldeaton]

Originally Posted by builtforspeed

As a devotee of both Rolex and Turnbull & Asser, and an admirer of Bond women, I for one appreciate your efforts on this and other threads, Dell.

There's an interesting continuity-type issue between what appears to be a pub still and the film frame you posted -- in one Bond appears in a dinner jacket and in the other he's in shirt sleeves.

Cheers,

Chris

Not sure that the B&W photograph is a publicity still, but there's no question that it's from a completely different camera setup. Ms. Gayson's hair is clearly different, as is Mr. Connery's. Notice that the line in the wall just above her hair and at his forehead cuts through the composition differently. And the lighting is all together something else.

Good point, Chris. The sort of thing that brings me back here for these discussions (and inching closer to "the" final answers).

There are other photographs at the safe w/ James Bond wearing the Osato Chemical watch; but I didn't use them as referents here because, of course, they weren't seen in the film. I tend to avoid "publicity stills" because they run the risk of turning out like those early shots of Connery holding the long-barrelled pistol: A thing of the photo shoot because the weapon featured in the film did not make it to that session.

(Similarly, I avoid stills of Timothy Dalton apparently in character as James Bond, wearing what very much appears to be a Rolex 16610 Submariner Date; it's sufficiently distant from the film itself as to allow for questions.)

I'm less on-the-fence about out takes (eg, again, with the Dalton Submariner Date in Licence to Kill, there's a hotel shot that has great view of the watch among deleted scenes). The argument I see there is that in order to dismiss something featured in an out take, one would have to believe that somehow a different property (watch) was featured for that scene only; although maybe "having the wrong watch on" was exactly the reason the scene was deleted?

In the case of different views from James Bond: The Legacy, versus my screen capture from Dr. No, my point was that the book authors had identified the Sylvia Trench watch as a Rolex. So the difference in the images to that research, it seems to me, is how the watch in the photograph was identified. My working hypothesis (subject, as w/ any hypothesis, to proof or disproof) is that the photograph was looked at and the question asked along the lines of, "What watch did James Bond wear in this scene?"

But your point may be that the actual question was, "What watch did James Bond wear in this photograph?"

Answer? "Oh, yeah: That watch is a Rolex. But we switched it to something else for the film, because we figured that forty or so years from now, on this thing to be called the Internet, there will be Forums where WIS-Bond followers will be studying images and it will be a real hoot to fool 'em like this."

Seriously. Don't let my joshing around here derail what may be another, and very good alternative reason why we should be looking elsewhere for the ID on the watches being discussed in this Thread.

Thanks.

[delldeaton]

Thought you guys might be interested in this reply that came in to my Blog yesterday. You can find the entire Post here: LINK

John and I have exchanged eMails particular to this very important subject. But this is what he's said for public consumption.

1. Ron Quelch is the source of Broccoli tossing his watch across the table when told they couldn't get one from Rolex.
2. I believe (but cannot confirm) that the filmmakers felt Bond should have a dress watch and an "action" watch.
3. I have NO CLUE what watch Bond is wearing in the casino and at home later.

The second point was the one that caught my attention. Interesting that there was discussion about having at least two James Bond watches for Dr. No. Nailing down the "tossed Rolex" story to Mr. Quelch allows for differentiation between that and the perspective of others who would have been considered "the filmmakers."

[DC watchman]

Originally Posted by Chris B

Fictional character just like Sherlock Holmes, sorry guys i just don't get this 007 nonsense

Agree. I give any James Bond post a big "yaaaaaawwwwnnnnn."

Scott Carpenter wearing a Rolex interests me more than a fictional spy.

[DC watchman]

Although I will give a tip of the hat to Dells research.... Pretty meticulous persuit of his hobby....