Submariner and GMT LN - Waitlist Observation / Question

[goodolejr]

I've been noticing a lot of posts recently from TRFers (rightly) venting their frustration as they patiently wait to receive "the call" from their AD for a Submariner LN (either version) or GMT LN.

My question simply posed is: why not just pay the comparatively small premium and go with a trusted seller?

I completely understand not wanting to pay thousands--or in the case of a white Daytona C or blue SkyD, ten+ thousand--in premium for the very hot models. But when you incorporate sales tax, the additional cost to get a BNIB, stickers-on LN overnighted to you from a trusted seller is around $1,000. That premium is cut in half if you go with a stickers-removed example.

For the record, I feel your pain. I'm just curious as to your main motivation behind sticking out the wait.

[Sublovin]

^^I can think of a number of reasons.
-refusal to pay over MSRP
-refusal to fuel the flipper market that has almost overtaken the hobby
-wanting their name on the warranty
-wanting to enjoy the AD experience while they take delivery
-wanting to establish an AD relationship
-refusal to pay over msrp for a mass produced watch...did I already say that one?!

[tyler1980]

for a watch that easy to get relatively speaking i would never entertain not buying a new watch. BNIB or not, im not the first owner.

With a Daytona then it becomes more of a thought

[Finslayer83]

the grey's NIB usually is better than new from an AD with sales tax (depending on location).

Here in TN it's 9.25% so.....$8,194 for a 114060 or $9,340 for a 116610

Based on the market there is some savings but for +/- a couple hundred bucks if I was inclined to get it new that is a wash.

[Junior_]

Several reasons:

1. It only took a couple of week wait for an 114060.
2. I wanted to continue the relationship with the AD for if/when I want other watches.
3. I wanted to be the original owner, purchasing from the AD.
4. I wanted the AD experience of watching it come out of the coffin, having it sized, talking to the AD about Rolex, as a brand, my watch.

[Seibei]

Because if something is worth doing it is worth doing it properly.

[Rolexavidfan]

Principles vs practicality.

No right or wrong answer, just a difference in opinion as well.


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[Daveclock]

From a quick look on the bay here in UK you can buy new, unworn GMT LN from list to about £500 over list.
At those prices I would wait...Come to that I am waiting for one! (keep you posted)

[goodolejr]

Originally Posted by Sublovin

^^I can think of a number of reasons.
(1) refusal to pay over MSRP
(2) refusal to fuel the flipper market that has almost overtaken the hobby
(3) wanting their name on the warranty
(4) wanting to enjoy the AD experience while they take delivery
(5) wanting to establish an AD relationship
(6) refusal to pay over msrp for a mass produced watch...did I already say that one?!

Sublovin - changed your hyphens to numbers for reference. My thoughts:

(1) Completely reasonable
(2) Completely reasonable
(3) I hear you. It's merely a preference as the warranty, if properly activated, is valid no matter whose name is on the card. And although the card is only valid for 5 years, it does establish the watch's provenance with you as the original owner. I get it.
(4) Maybe it's just me, but a glass of champagne and a bottle of the AD's private label water never seemed that glorious.
(5) This seems largely dependent on the specific AD. I was having a lighthearted chat with an SA here in Dallas about all this a few months ago. Regarding relationships, he mentioned that he has a client--one client--with a $12 million spend history at the store. It just gives you pause when you think about all the other customers who have spent insane amounts in his store as well. Obviously this doesn't apply to all or even most ADs, but it still begs the questions: is buying one very hot SS piece going to do that much?
(6) I hear you.

Thanks for the responses.

[Tony1T]

Originally Posted by Seibei

Because if something is worth doing it is worth doing it properly.

I agree with above, I will only pay MSRP and if that means I need to wait then so be it, Ive been fortunate in getting a GMT LN and Sub Date within the last six months. Good things come to those who wait..

[Kingfish01]

To me it is a piece of personal property. I am not crazy about the fact that somebody else wore it around their wrists for who knows how long. I have bought from a trusted seller before, but I have also bought new. And I much more appreciate a new watch

[cpwatches]

Don't want to encourage flippers.

[hbombkid]

Originally Posted by Seibei

Because if something is worth doing it is worth doing it properly.

I cannot say I have been to many ADs and with the exception of one AD the trusted seller customer service is way better. The one AD was on par but others I personally felt I was just a number and that’s it. Now i will say my experiences have been in DC so big market or a chain AD. I have not experienced a small AD and maybe they treat you better.

So you are right doing something right is going with a trusted seller.

To the OP other than the Daytona I agree most watches are not much over MSRP especially when you throw in tax if I wanted something I would maybe consider spending a little more vs waiting. I also believe the models the require more money you will not lose money on them if you sell.

[Dusko.Popov]

Originally Posted by hbombkid

I cannot say I have been to many ADs and with the exception of one AD the trusted seller customer service is way better. The one AD was on par but others I personally felt I was just a number and that’s it. Now i will say my experiences have been in DC so big market or a chain AD. I have not experienced a small AD and maybe they treat you better.

So you are right doing something right is going with a trusted seller.

To the OP other than the Daytona I agree most watches are not much over MSRP especially when you throw in tax if I wanted something I would maybe consider spending a little more vs waiting. I also believe the models the require more money you will not lose money on them if you sell.

There is nothing “right” about going grey market, trusted seller, etc.

They’re pirates. They hoard supply and then offer it back to you at a premium. They’ve artificially manipulating the same market that they then profit from. It’s bullcrap. And then people laud that piracy as if it’s customer service.

“Oh thank you, thank you _________ for letting me buy the 116610ln for $900 more than I would have paid for it if you just wouldn’t have cut volume deals with my local ad. You’re so magnanimous and your shipping time was exceptional.”

What a farce.

Stockholm Syndrome at its finest.

[jcarm981]

I think the OP is just saying if people want the watch so bad pay a little more. If you have patience / discipline to wait and value AD relationship all good. The premium for the GMT or Sub vs. the BLRO or Daytona is a different conversation.

[rolexdream]

Ad’s in uk are dreadful for new customers wanting a basic sub or gmt ln. A fee put me on lists last yr but no one got back to me. If anyone knows of an ad in the uk who takes on new peeps let me know

[goodolejr]

Originally Posted by jcarm981

I think the OP is just saying if people want the watch so bad pay a little more. If you have patience / discipline to wait and value AD relationship all good. The premium for the GMT or Sub vs. the BLRO or Daytona is a different conversation.

Correctamundo

[peachy]

I’m looking for a few very popular SS watches (black sub date, white Daytona, PP nautilus 5711, AP RO) for my high schooler son. SS is practical and durable, more suitable for a teenager, I can’t imagine he goes to school with a YG submariner on his wrist.

Waited for six months so far. I was not put on a waiting list, but instead was put on an “expression of interest” list by one AD out of six, other five were not interested at my business and told me to F off.. No guarantee whether I will get the watch in several years, I felt that list is more like their own little survey reflecting current demand.

My thought process and reasons for waiting hopelessly at AD:

1) I always buy my luxury bags and jewellery from boutique and never from any reseller, so it’s a instinct to go to a AD for the watch;
2) I don’t trust any reseller that based overseas, mainly authenticity concerns, then return or after sale care will be a hassle;
3) I want my son to try the watches on him before I spend tens of thousands. It’s funny that we went to all six ADs in my city, and wasn’t able to see ANY of the watches I mentioned, not even in PM.
4) hot models are popular because they are classic, and relatively affordable within their own respective brands. black sub date, white Daytona, nautilus 5711 blue, AP RO... but they don’t just have a $1000 premium price tag on the grey market.
Use the cheapest black sub as example, it is priced $4000 over retail (not include $200 shipping, and thousand of dollars of import duties and tax.) on chrono24. Ie, AUD$18k for a black sub that retail for $12k.
Not to mention a nautilus blue SS 5711...
5) after paying $6k premium for a never worn 2019 black sub date, a stranger’s name is written on the warranty card forever. That does not feel as personal as a AD experience.
6) as I mentioned before, these watches will be gifts to a young teenage son. I will pay. for them, but his name will be recorded as the customer of this AD. I want him to establish a relationship with a AD, so in the future decades when he’s all grown up and wanting another new hot model, he can easily get them without the frustration I experienced now.
7) I don’t believe my son will only need one watch for life (it’s like saying to me women only need ONE handbag, or one pair of shoes). Paying the premium from grey market only solve this issue once, but not for long term.
I’m not prepared to pay premium for every watch in the future.

[mbdurham]

I looked for two years then really looked for a year and finally gave up and went grey about a month ago. Got a two month old sub date with some stickers, full set and paid the equivalent of MSRP plus my local sales tax.

Although I really like the sub it’s not the same experience or feel for some reason as the SD43 I got very lucky in getting from a AD a week ago. Even if it had been reversed (SD43 from grey and sub from AD) I am sure I would have the same feeling.

Anybody can go on the internet at anytime and buy any watch they want for maybe a premium. To me it’s just special when you are the first owner with a story to go with it and it’s only been in your name. Definitely not something everyone can do whenever they want at least right now.

I learned this difference, for me anyway, in hindsight

If you don’t care about any of the above then no reason to wait.


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[PatronMTL]

Am I wrong to say most of us already have a/many watches and the need to pay over retail for a basic model is silly as opposed to being patient and eventually adding that desired (but not necessarily rare) model to the collection? I doubt this drought will last forever.

PErsonally I don’t mind waiting because I’ll always want another, and nothing feels better than getting a deal, even if that means only paying retail

[peachy]

I am a mother looking to buy several SS watch for a young high schooler son. I think SS is more practical, durable and lightweight for his age, just can't imagine he goes to school with a YG sub on the wrist.
I was looking for some very popular models, sub date, daytona, nautilus and royal oak, and I want all four today.
I went into all six boutiques in my city, and in the end, only ONE took my name and put onto the "expression of interest" list---no guarantee you will get the watch, no timeframe, sounds more like the store's own little survey for knowing the current demand.
I waited six months so far, no call, no news, nothing.

My thought process and reasons for waiting (hopelessly) at the AD is:
1) I brought all my handbags and jewelry from boutiques, never from a reseller, so naturally when it comes to my son's watches, I go to an AD.
2) I do not trust resellers online, especially if they located overseas. If the watches have authenticity issues, or other problems, it is a hassle to seek refund or after sale care.
3) I would like my son to try to watches on, feel their weight, before I spent tens of thousands on these watches. Funny that on our numerous visits to various ADs, we never got to see one of those models in person, even if it's a PM version.
4) Most importantly, I would like my son to develop good relationship with an AD so when he is fully grown up and wanted another hot new watch, he doesn't have to go through the same frustration as me.

Hot models means they are classic and highly desirable. These models don't just cost $1000 more than retail price. I have checked all four SS models (black sub date, white daytona, PP Nautilus blue, AP RO) on chrono24 this morning when I was a bit frustrated (hopeless impatient shopaholic).
Use cheapest out of all four, brand new 2019 black sub date as example. Listed price is AUD$16000 (retail $10800), not including the $200 shipping, and about $1500 of duties and tax to import it to Australia.
Total I estimate around AUD$18000 for a $10800 black sub date.
Don't even get started on PP Nautilus blue 5711.
6) After paying approximately $7000 more than others who got the black sub date in AD, I will be looking at a warranty card with a stranger's name on it, Forever. As I mentioned before, these watches will be gifts from me to my son, but I don't feel the 100% experience.
7) I don't believe my son will only need one watch for life (it's like saying women only need one handbag, or one pair of shoes). I think these SS models may only suit him for 10-20 years. He may want something newer later. Buying from the grey market only solve the issue once, and you will have to keep buying at a premium each time you want a new popular watch.

PS: I posted this once, but the forum is acting weird and my reply disappeared. Please excuse me if double post later.

[SkyJuice]

Welcome to the world of Rolex where sometimes logic does not gel.
Supply versus demand at work here :)

[georgekart]

Originally Posted by peachy

I was looking for some very popular models, sub date, daytona, nautilus and royal oak, and I want all four today. ... I waited six months so far, no call, no news, nothing.

You picked some desirable models, and when you want them supply is less than the demand. It's a sellers market. I was at my local AD yesterday, if I wanted I could get a black dial DSSD as they had one right there, or plenty of DJs, even relatively sought after wimbledon dial, but if I want a BLNR waitlist would be 1-2 years. Now I have absolutely no relationship with them and if I was to get some less desirable models I think it'd take less time for WL items but still.

Originally Posted by peachy

2) I do not trust resellers online, especially if they located overseas. If the watches have authenticity issues, or other problems, it is a hassle to seek refund or after sale care.
3) I would like my son to try to watches on, feel their weight, before I spent tens of thousands on these watches. Funny that on our numerous visits to various ADs, we never got to see one of those models in person, even if it's a PM version.

I will disagree with those 2 actually, especially with trying on and feeling the watches, because if I wanted to go to grey dealer, I could try on a Hulk, Batman, Pepsi and Daytona today, I wouldn't buy from grey because I wouldn't want to feed the market, but I could definitely try them on unlike ADs. And good greys have a reputation which they value. I personally never bought from DSW for example, but have heard nothing but the best and even heard people having issues years later that got fixed in a quick and professional manner. Last I can think of is IIRC RSC in Australia told someone bezel on his GMT was taken off before and that's why it's not centered so it is not a warranty issue, he contacted DSW and he agreed to cover all costs.

[peachy]

Originally Posted by georgekart

You picked some desirable models, and when you want them supply is less than the demand. It's a sellers market. I was at my local AD yesterday, if I wanted I could get a black dial DSSD as they had one right there, or plenty of DJs, even relatively sought after wimbledon dial, but if I want a BLNR waitlist would be 1-2 years. Now I have absolutely no relationship with them and if I was to get some less desirable models I think it'd take less time for WL items but still.



I will disagree with those 2 actually, especially with trying on and feeling the watches, because if I wanted to go to grey dealer, I could try on a Hulk, Batman, Pepsi and Daytona today, I wouldn't buy from grey because I wouldn't want to feed the market, but I could definitely try them on unlike ADs. And good greys have a reputation which they value. I personally never bought from DSW for example, but have heard nothing but the best and even heard people having issues years later that got fixed in a quick and professional manner. Last I can think of is IIRC RSC in Australia told someone bezel on his GMT was taken off before and that's why it's not centered so it is not a warranty issue, he contacted DSW and he agreed to cover all costs.

Yes I noted, in my ADs, they have a PP grand complication, they have Rolex pearlmaster, lady datejust, AP gold RO chrono for ladies, but nothing in SS. Not even a SS men’s datejust.
Our waiting time for black sub date is two years (the hour glass) or four years (kennedy).
PP nautilus 5711? That’s another story. Looking at 10-15 years wait, reduced if you buy a lot of pateks.
Back to the Rolex sub, you must be a good customer with history of 3-5 watches, then you can be put on the waiting list.
Yes, I asked, how many watches do I need to buy to get on the list. The SA on the phone said, “three is not enough.”
I guess if I really want to be the perfect mother, I should buy 3-5 pearlmaster for myself, in hope that I can be qualified to buy a men’s watch that’s not in the counter.
Spend tens of thousands to get on a list to wait several more years, sounds very attractive to me.
How pointless, my son is happier (in his primary and high school years) with his SS seiko brought around $250 (on 50% sale). And he gets a new one every year since 2009, as the watch get damaged from sports, or he bashing it against the wall....

From this forum the shop DavidSW were mentioned a few times so I went there straight away. Price is similar to chrono24, black sub date AUD$16000 and with tax duty and others, $18k total I think. It all comes to how desperate I am for one watch.

I am very curious where the thread starter find the grey market black sub to be same as retail or a few hundreds more. To me it’s a $7200 difference.

[lennon]

Originally Posted by Sublovin

^^I can think of a number of reasons.
-refusal to pay over MSRP
-refusal to fuel the flipper market that has almost overtaken the hobby
-wanting their name on the warranty
-wanting to enjoy the AD experience while they take delivery
-wanting to establish an AD relationship
-refusal to pay over msrp for a mass produced watch...did I already say that one?!

This reminds me of this scene from caddy shack.

Tony D'Annunzio:
Give me a coke.

Danny Noonan:
One coke.

Tony D'Annunzio:
Hey wait a minute. That's only 50 cents.

Danny Noonan:
Yeah well Lou raised the price of coke he's been losing at the track.

Tony D'Annunzio:
Well I ain't paying no 50 cents for no coke.

Danny Noonan:
Oh then you ain't getting no coke. Know what I'm talking about?



and the AD experience? come on, unless they're blowing me while im drinking champagne and blowing a rail then I'd much rather have it delivered to my office, my couch or wherever i may be.

[watchwatcher]

I don't think it's unreasonable to pay the premium for just a basic sub/GMT. The problem is that it doesn't get you any closer to getting anything else from an AD. Interesting times...

[Roddypeepa]

and the AD experience? come on, unless they're blowing me while im drinking champagne and blowing a rail then I'd much rather have it delivered to my office, my couch or wherever i may be.[/QUOTE]



Ha ha ha. I hear you.


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[LesserBlackDog]

Originally Posted by goodolejr

I've been noticing a lot of posts recently from TRFers (rightly) venting their frustration as they patiently wait to receive "the call" from their AD for a Submariner LN (either version) or GMT LN.

My question simply posed is: why not just pay the comparatively small premium and go with a trusted seller?

I completely understand not wanting to pay thousands--or in the case of a white Daytona C or blue SkyD, ten+ thousand--in premium for the very hot models. But when you incorporate sales tax, the additional cost to get a BNIB, stickers-on LN overnighted to you from a trusted seller is around $1,000. That premium is cut in half if you go with a stickers-removed example.

For the record, I feel your pain. I'm just curious as to your main motivation behind sticking out the wait.

I don't know what sellers you're looking at but I'm perusing DavidSW and Jomashop as we speak and new no date Subs are going for ~$9,500; even pre-owned are ~$8,500.

A $2,000 markup on a $7,500 item is not a "small premium." That's a 25% markup for an item that is not rare, special, or unique.

The "trusted sellers" or grey market dealers are not our friends. They aren't selling us these watches to do us a favor. They are snapping up desirable SS models left and right, essentially creating or at the very least exacerbating the so-called "shortage," only to turn around and upcharge to profit off the very shortage they have helped to create. I'm not interested in rewarding their behavior at my own expense just to get my hands on a totally unnecessary luxury item a little bit earlier than if I were to go through an AD.

[ap1]

Originally Posted by peachy

Yes I noted, in my ADs, they have a PP grand complication, they have Rolex pearlmaster, lady datejust, AP gold RO chrono for ladies, but nothing in SS. Not even a SS men’s datejust.
Our waiting time for black sub date is two years (the hour glass) or four years (kennedy).
PP nautilus 5711? That’s another story. Looking at 10-15 years wait, reduced if you buy a lot of pateks.
Back to the Rolex sub, you must be a good customer with history of 3-5 watches, then you can be put on the waiting list.
Yes, I asked, how many watches do I need to buy to get on the list. The SA on the phone said, “three is not enough.”
I guess if I really want to be the perfect mother, I should buy 3-5 pearlmaster for myself, in hope that I can be qualified to buy a men’s watch that’s not in the counter.
Spend tens of thousands to get on a list to wait several more years, sounds very attractive to me.
How pointless, my son is happier (in his primary and high school years) with his SS seiko brought around $250 (on 50% sale). And he gets a new one every year since 2009, as the watch get damaged from sports, or he bashing it against the wall....

From this forum the shop DavidSW were mentioned a few times so I went there straight away. Price is similar to chrono24, black sub date AUD$16000 and with tax duty and others, $18k total I think. It all comes to how desperate I am for one watch.

I am very curious where the thread starter find the grey market black sub to be same as retail or a few hundreds more. To me it’s a $7200 difference.

Great mom. I wore a swatch in HS.

[PossumDixon]

You can do better from a trusted seller IMO. I got a one week old GMT LN on here from a very nice guy and saved about $750 off New when you factor in the sales tax. No brainer.