Three tiers of watch brands.....and one you shouldn’t buy

[wrx04]

I am starting my journey of learning about watches, and would like to get input on the best (and worst) brands in different price categories. It is overwhelming how many different brands and levels of watches there really are, so I’m sure there are some really cool ones I haven’t heard about. I would also be interested to know what brands are all marketing and should be avoided. I don’t want this thread to bash certain brands, but I would like YOUR personal opinion on the best five brands in each category. I’ll give my perception based on the little I’ve learned so far and see how it matches up:

Tier 1: money is no object and these are the most well built custom pieces on the planet. The most high quality watch you can get at any price:

-Patek Philippe
-Audemars Piguet
-Jaeger-LeCoultre
-A. Lange & Sohne
-Vacheron Constantin

Tier 2: high end watches that are within reach of mere mortals. Let’s put a price point of $6k-$15k on this list:
-Rolex
-Omega
-TWC
-Zenith
-Grand Seiko

Tier 3: best value watches. Under $5k
-Tudor
-Breitling
-Casio G Shock
-Seiko
-Tag Heuer

One you would never buy? Invicta seems to not be well liked

If there is a specific model for the brand that is really great, please list that as well.

[Bobby T]

F.P. Journe, Richard Mille (Tier 1)............Blancpain, Carl F Bucherer, Franck Muller, Jacquet Droz (Tier 2), Breguet

[Dan Pierce]

I don't buy brands. I buy references I like. Having owned everything from Patek to Seiko skx, and many in-between, as well as vintage to brand new, the tier was never as important as the joy a specific watch brought me when used as intended.
dP

[Skyrider01]

Let's not forget the independents, many of which I would classify ahead of those you put in Tier 1.

FP Journe
Kari Voutilainen
Romain Gauthier
Laurent Ferrier
Philippe Dufour

These fit your criteria for Tier 1 much better than the mass produced brands you listed.

[wrx04]

Originally Posted by Skyrider01

Let's not forget the independents, many of which I would classify ahead of those you put in Tier 1.

FP Journe
Kari Voutilainen
Romain Gauthier
Laurent Ferrier
Philippe Dufour

These fit your criteria for Tier 1 much better than the mass produced brands you listed.

That’s great. I haven’t heard of any of those.

For the record......my list is in no way what I think is “right”.....just what I’ve read so far. This is exactly what I’m looking for.

[Tom5518]

Originally Posted by Dan Pierce

I don't buy brands. I buy references I like. Having owned everything from Patek to Seiko skx, and many in-between, as well as vintage to brand new, the tier was never as important as the joy a specific watch brought me when used as intended.
dP

Well put Dan, I feel the same way. I get just as excited getting a Seiko that sings to me as I do about any watch.

[Dan Pierce]

Originally Posted by Tom5518

Well put Dan, I feel the same way. I get just as excited getting a Seiko that sings to me as I do about any watch.

Nothing like some cheap thrills after spending thousands on fine Swiss time piece.
dP

[mongrelnomoad]

Originally Posted by Dan Pierce

I don't buy brands. I buy references I like. Having owned everything from Patek to Seiko skx, and many in-between, as well as vintage to brand new, the tier was never as important as the joy a specific watch brought me when used as intended.
dP

This.

[MichaelFlash]

Originally Posted by Dan Pierce

I don't buy brands. I buy references I like. Having owned everything from Patek to Seiko skx, and many in-between, as well as vintage to brand new, the tier was never as important as the joy a specific watch brought me when used as intended.
dP

Agreed. This "tier" thing and ones you shouldn't buy are IMHO exactly the element of watch collecting that turns me off the most. Sounds more like someone looking to invest in stocks as opposed to enjoying the watches themselves. Rid yourself of this type of thinking and a whole world of possibilities opens up and you avoid boredom by collecting the exact same watches and brands as everyone else.

[whattimeyougot]

Originally Posted by MichaelFlash

Agreed. This "tier" thing and ones you shouldn't buy are IMHO exactly the element of watch collecting that turns me off the most. Sounds more like someone looking to invest in stocks as opposed to enjoying the watches themselves. Rid yourself of this type of thinking and a whole world of possibilities opens up and you avoid boredom by collecting the exact same watches and brands as everyone else.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mongrelnomoad]

Originally Posted by MichaelFlash

Agreed. This "tier" thing and ones you shouldn't buy are IMHO exactly the element of watch collecting that turns me off the most. Sounds more like someone looking to invest in stocks as opposed to enjoying the watches themselves. Rid yourself of this type of thinking and a whole world of possibilities opens up and you avoid boredom by collecting the exact same watches and brands as everyone else.

Just wait until within those tiers you come across people deriding “entry-level” pieces. Gate keepers gonna gate.

Laugh a little at their insecurity, ignore them, and move on.

[AJMarcus]

Originally Posted by Dan Pierce

I don't buy brands. I buy references I like. Having owned everything from Patek to Seiko skx, and many in-between, as well as vintage to brand new, the tier was never as important as the joy a specific watch brought me when used as intended.
dP

Very well said Dan. I couldn’t agree more. To me that’s what collecting is all about- not status objects in tiers.

[stockae92]

Originally Posted by wrx04

I am starting my journey of learning about watches, and would like to get input on the best (and worst) brands in different price categories. It is overwhelming how many different brands and levels of watches there really are, so I’m sure there are some really cool ones I haven’t heard about. I would also be interested to know what brands are all marketing and should be avoided. I don’t want this thread to bash certain brands, but I would like YOUR personal opinion on the best five brands in each category. I’ll give my perception based on the little I’ve learned so far and see how it matches up:

Tier 1: money is no object and these are the most well built custom pieces on the planet. The most high quality watch you can get at any price:

-Patek Philippe
-Audemars Piguet
-Jaeger-LeCoultre
-A. Lange & Sohne
-Vacheron Constantin

Tier 2: high end watches that are within reach of mere mortals. Let’s put a price point of $6k-$15k on this list:
-Rolex
-Omega
-TWC
-Zenith
-Grand Seiko

Tier 3: best value watches. Under $5k
-Tudor
-Breitling
-Casio G Shock
-Seiko
-Tag Heuer

One you would never buy? Invicta seems to not be well liked

If there is a specific model for the brand that is really great, please list that as well.

I would replace Tag Heuer with Citizen. I dare to say Citizen makes "better" watch than Seiko, especially for the mid to lower end. Seiko's QC lately has been a hit or miss, which disappoints a lot of collectors. Citizen has been putting out quality products throughout their product range.

I am a big fan of Grand Seiko 9F quartz movement, but the movement spec in Citizen Chronomaster is a step ahead of what GS has to offer.

[Skyman]

OP, I fear you may have started off on the wrong foot. Best drop this and try again.

[tudorbaja27]

Originally Posted by Skyman

OP, I fear you may have started off on the wrong foot. Best drop this and try again.

[Nav01L]

I don’t think ranking brands is that easy because some of them, like JLC will have low level stuff that’s just about on par with lower end offerings of brands like IWC and other stuff that flies up in the spheres of complicated Pateks or Vacherons.

What probably makes most sense is to organize individual watches in these broad categories:

Level 1: Mechanical, industrial, purely cost focussed watches with mostly generic designs and parts, basic rough machine finish if any, approx. CHF 500-3500

Level 2: Mechanical, industrial, simple, quality focussed watches with mostly generic movements but often dedicated designs and marketing stories, basic machine finish, approx. CHF 3500 - 6500

Level 3: Mechanical, industrial more function specific quality watches with more dedicated and complex movements and strongly developed designs and marketing identities, machine finish, approx. CHF 6500 - 12000 (more of in precious metals)

Level 4: Mechanical, partially hand finished simple watches with often very classical designs, entry level to the world of haute horlogerie, approx. CHF 17000 - 28000

Level 5: Mechanical, partially hand finished watches with simple complications (chronographs, calendars, ACs, etc.), approx. CHF 30000 - 60000

Level 6: Mechanical hand finished watches from independents, with often outstanding artisanship on relatively simple movements, CHF 50000 - 80000

Level 7: Mechanical partially or truly hand finished watches with great complications (split second chronographs, perpetual calendars, tourbillions (not actually a complication but who cares), etc., approx CHF 75000 - ******

Level 7bis: Richard Mille, fantastic marketing, watchmaking that may or may not be superior to others (it’s not really), ridiculous hype, approx. 90000 - ******

Level 8: Exceptional mechanical watches, often hand made by independents, approx. CHF 300000 - *******


Brands like Rolex clearly dominate level 3. AP arguably has a very strong footing in level 4 from a brand recognition perspective. Other brands like Patek or VC will give you the best quality in the segment. Level 5 has a lot of competition in it, lots of great Langes, cool underrated Patek chronos at the upper end, VC is really strong in there too and some upper end JLCs can be found there as well... etc, etc...

[kwcsports]

Originally Posted by Dan Pierce

I don't buy brands. I buy references I like. Having owned everything from Patek to Seiko skx, and many in-between, as well as vintage to brand new, the tier was never as important as the joy a specific watch brought me when used as intended.
dP

This is the correct answer ^^^^

[vman]

It is very hard to define watches in tier because many manufacturers have different tier levels themselves. E.g., Vacheron Constnantin has models without the Geneva seal. These are great watches that lack some items required to get the seal... Same applies to JLC. There is a big difference between a basic Master watch and a grand complication.

In any case, while I still have to work (no FU $ here), I prefer to stay away from the middle tier. When I contemplate a watch, I ask:

- Will this be a solid daily? Examples: Citizen EcoDrive, Seiko Divers; OR
- Is it high horology (or close to it)

If the answer is Yes, I buy.

[Pongster]

Originally Posted by Nav01L

I don’t think ranking brands is that easy because some of them, like JLC will have low level stuff that’s just about on par with lower end offerings of brands like IWC and other stuff that flies up in the spheres of complicated Pateks or Vacherons.

What probably makes most sense is to organize individual watches in these broad categories:

Level 1: Mechanical, industrial, purely cost focussed watches with mostly generic designs and parts, basic rough machine finish if any, approx. CHF 500-3500

Level 2: Mechanical, industrial, simple, quality focussed watches with mostly generic movements but often dedicated designs and marketing stories, basic machine finish, approx. CHF 3500 - 6500

Level 3: Mechanical, industrial more function specific quality watches with more dedicated and complex movements and strongly developed designs and marketing identities, machine finish, approx. CHF 6500 - 12000 (more of in precious metals)

Level 4: Mechanical, partially hand finished simple watches with often very classical designs, entry level to the world of haute horlogerie, approx. CHF 17000 - 28000

Level 5: Mechanical, partially hand finished watches with simple complications (chronographs, calendars, ACs, etc.), approx. CHF 30000 - 60000

Level 6: Mechanical hand finished watches from independents, with often outstanding artisanship on relatively simple movements, CHF 50000 - 80000

Level 7: Mechanical partially or truly hand finished watches with great complications (split second chronographs, perpetual calendars, tourbillions (not actually a complication but who cares), etc., approx CHF 75000 - ******

Level 7bis: Richard Mille, fantastic marketing, watchmaking that may or may not be superior to others (it’s not really), ridiculous hype, approx. 90000 - ******

Level 8: Exceptional mechanical watches, often hand made by independents, approx. CHF 300000 - *******


Brands like Rolex clearly dominate level 3. AP arguably has a very strong footing in level 4 from a brand recognition perspective. Other brands like Patek or VC will give you the best quality in the segment. Level 5 has a lot of competition in it, lots of great Langes, cool underrated Patek chronos at the upper end, VC is really strong in there too and some upper end JLCs can be found there as well... etc, etc...

Great horological taxonomy.

What are examples of Levels 7 and 8?

RM in a sub-class of its own? :)

[Tom5518]

Originally Posted by Dan Pierce

Nothing like some cheap thrills after spending thousands on fine Swiss time piece.
dP

Again, agreed 100%



Today I was at my AD who also sells Seiko and was as excited about getting this as I was about a little sumpin' sumpin' they brought out from the back that I had to say yes to and am picking up in a couple days.

[Pw92676]

Originally Posted by Dan Pierce

I don't buy brands. I buy references I like. Having owned everything from Patek to Seiko skx, and many in-between, as well as vintage to brand new, the tier was never as important as the joy a specific watch brought me when used as intended.
dP

Totally agree.

No offense to the OP but IMO lists like these are rookie mistakes. Don’t overthink it, rank order lists cannot and do not work well.

[dualcarb]

Originally Posted by Dan Pierce

I don't buy brands. I buy references I like. Having owned everything from Patek to Seiko skx, and many in-between, as well as vintage to brand new, the tier was never as important as the joy a specific watch brought me when used as intended.
dP

Well said Dan

[wrx04]

Originally Posted by Nav01L

I don’t think ranking brands is that easy because some of them, like JLC will have low level stuff that’s just about on par with lower end offerings of brands like IWC and other stuff that flies up in the spheres of complicated Pateks or Vacherons.

What probably makes most sense is to organize individual watches in these broad categories:

Level 1: Mechanical, industrial, purely cost focussed watches with mostly generic designs and parts, basic rough machine finish if any, approx. CHF 500-3500

Level 2: Mechanical, industrial, simple, quality focussed watches with mostly generic movements but often dedicated designs and marketing stories, basic machine finish, approx. CHF 3500 - 6500

Level 3: Mechanical, industrial more function specific quality watches with more dedicated and complex movements and strongly developed designs and marketing identities, machine finish, approx. CHF 6500 - 12000 (more of in precious metals)

Level 4: Mechanical, partially hand finished simple watches with often very classical designs, entry level to the world of haute horlogerie, approx. CHF 17000 - 28000

Level 5: Mechanical, partially hand finished watches with simple complications (chronographs, calendars, ACs, etc.), approx. CHF 30000 - 60000

Level 6: Mechanical hand finished watches from independents, with often outstanding artisanship on relatively simple movements, CHF 50000 - 80000

Level 7: Mechanical partially or truly hand finished watches with great complications (split second chronographs, perpetual calendars, tourbillions (not actually a complication but who cares), etc., approx CHF 75000 - ******

Level 7bis: Richard Mille, fantastic marketing, watchmaking that may or may not be superior to others (it’s not really), ridiculous hype, approx. 90000 - ******

Level 8: Exceptional mechanical watches, often hand made by independents, approx. CHF 300000 - *******


Brands like Rolex clearly dominate level 3. AP arguably has a very strong footing in level 4 from a brand recognition perspective. Other brands like Patek or VC will give you the best quality in the segment. Level 5 has a lot of competition in it, lots of great Langes, cool underrated Patek chronos at the upper end, VC is really strong in there too and some upper end JLCs can be found there as well... etc, etc...

This is a great reply. Thanks.

I’m definitely interested in the Level 2-3. Well built, high quality watches. Probably won’t ever have the money to play in the upper levels, nor do I care to......still nice to learn about.

[wrx04]

Originally Posted by MichaelFlash

Agreed. This "tier" thing and ones you shouldn't buy are IMHO exactly the element of watch collecting that turns me off the most. Sounds more like someone looking to invest in stocks as opposed to enjoying the watches themselves. Rid yourself of this type of thinking and a whole world of possibilities opens up and you avoid boredom by collecting the exact same watches and brands as everyone else.

I agree. My original post reeks of ignorance.....I am brand new to watches. The “tier” thing is stupid. I am trying to get an opinion for the best built watches at each price point.

A Honda Civic has different attributes than a Ferrari, but they are both good in their own regard and their respective price points.

I am interested in the point of diminishing returns as an everyday watch that you can wear for a lifetime. Not an investment, not a piece of art, not a status symbol. It seems like Rolex SS models is about the sweet spot.....maybe that’s why it’s so popular. What is the other options in that range quality wise?

[wrx04]

Originally Posted by Pw92676

Totally agree.

No offense to the OP but IMO lists like these are rookie mistakes. Don’t overthink it, rank order lists cannot and do not work well.

It is a rookie mistake. Don’t mean to sound like a jackass. Interested to hear specific references you guys like in all price ranges and brands.

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by Pongster

Great horological taxonomy.

What are examples of Levels 7 and 8?

RM in a sub-class of its own? :)

That was more of a tongue in cheek one of course.

7 in my view would start with the perpetual calendars from the big three and go all the way to things like 5270s, but it would also comprise things like an FPJ resonance or DeBethunes Tourbillon watches, a striking Zeitwerk or the chiming watches from AP, Patek or Vacheron or even JLC, not to mention the tourbs. To be fair, many RMs would also be in this category, especially the ultralight tourbillons.

8 is where I‘s see many of the watches Greubel make, Patek‘s supercomplication, VC‘s les cabinotiers watches, or some Urwerks, to name some of the more mainstream ones, but also eclectic stuff like some MB&F pieces or the Antiqua.

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by wrx04

This is a great reply. Thanks.

I’m definitely interested in the Level 2-3. Well built, high quality watches. Probably won’t ever have the money to play in the upper levels, nor do I care to......still nice to learn about.

Give it time, once you truly understand what makes the difference to level 4, it has a way of creeping up on you. The gap between 3 and 4 is probably the most significant min terms of separating two different words

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by wrx04

I agree. My original post reeks of ignorance.....I am brand new to watches. The “tier” thing is stupid. I am trying to get an opinion for the best built watches at each price point.

A Honda Civic has different attributes than a Ferrari, but they are both good in their own regard and their respective price points.

I am interested in the point of diminishing returns as an everyday watch that you can wear for a lifetime. Not an investment, not a piece of art, not a status symbol. It seems like Rolex SS models is about the sweet spot.....maybe that’s why it’s so popular. What is the other options in that range quality wise?

IWC‘s higher Tier of watches might be an - albeit typically dressier - option. Many Omegas are probably more of a sweet spot for what you describe than Rolex, although less of a status symbol.

[Slider817]

I have to agree with the prior comments that you are not buying a brand, you are buying a specific model from a brand. Most companies have a wide variety of watches that have different quality levels and complications. Other than Rolex, which all the watches have basically the same level lever of quality and complications (just material differences), many brands offer watches that can have 6 or even 7 figure price differences from their entry to their high end, and everything in between.

Additionally, certain models in a brand can diverge greatly style of the brand. Whether in quality, design or innovation.

I guess you could divide up brands into tiers based on the majority of their products, but I’m not really sure what that would accomplish

[themast]

Originally Posted by Nav01L

I don’t think ranking brands is that easy because some of them, like JLC will have low level stuff that’s just about on par with lower end offerings of brands like IWC and other stuff that flies up in the spheres of complicated Pateks or Vacherons.

What probably makes most sense is to organize individual watches in these broad categories:

Level 1: Mechanical, industrial, purely cost focussed watches with mostly generic designs and parts, basic rough machine finish if any, approx. CHF 500-3500

Level 2: Mechanical, industrial, simple, quality focussed watches with mostly generic movements but often dedicated designs and marketing stories, basic machine finish, approx. CHF 3500 - 6500

Level 3: Mechanical, industrial more function specific quality watches with more dedicated and complex movements and strongly developed designs and marketing identities, machine finish, approx. CHF 6500 - 12000 (more of in precious metals)

Level 4: Mechanical, partially hand finished simple watches with often very classical designs, entry level to the world of haute horlogerie, approx. CHF 17000 - 28000

Level 5: Mechanical, partially hand finished watches with simple complications (chronographs, calendars, ACs, etc.), approx. CHF 30000 - 60000

Level 6: Mechanical hand finished watches from independents, with often outstanding artisanship on relatively simple movements, CHF 50000 - 80000

Level 7: Mechanical partially or truly hand finished watches with great complications (split second chronographs, perpetual calendars, tourbillions (not actually a complication but who cares), etc., approx CHF 75000 - ******

Level 7bis: Richard Mille, fantastic marketing, watchmaking that may or may not be superior to others (it’s not really), ridiculous hype, approx. 90000 - ******

Level 8: Exceptional mechanical watches, often hand made by independents, approx. CHF 300000 - *******


Brands like Rolex clearly dominate level 3. AP arguably has a very strong footing in level 4 from a brand recognition perspective. Other brands like Patek or VC will give you the best quality in the segment. Level 5 has a lot of competition in it, lots of great Langes, cool underrated Patek chronos at the upper end, VC is really strong in there too and some upper end JLCs can be found there as well... etc, etc...

This is a good way to wrap your head around the watch market. As many have said, you have to look at the individual models rather than the brand. There are obviously some brands (Rolex!) that are highly specialized in a particular level while some cover the entire spectrum or almost (JLC).

Start shopping around and try different watches on. It takes some time but you will start appreciating what makes a watch “valuable” to you (price is not the only factor!).