Hands of 1675 replaced by RSC counter to instructions

[HDMW]

Hello List :
When I sent in my 1675 for service, I instructed the Rolex agent in Bordeaux not to replace any part of the watch. Nevertheless it came back with new hands.
How seriously has this replacement reduced the value of the watch?
Can anything be done to repair the damage?

[Paul7]

Did the old hands have the patina of the hour markers?

[wsfarrell]

Unfortunately, Rolex doesn't take instructions in these cases. They do whatever they think is necessary to restore the watch. If this were Omega, at least you would have gotten the old hands back. I would search eBay for a vintage handset and have a local watchmaker install it.

[1watch]

Did you put that in writing to them?
If so, there should be recourse. Another case study why collectors who care about originality don’t use an RSC for vintage servicing. You’ll need to now spend money finding a tritium set that will match and they’re not cheap. If you put that instruction to them in writing, I would go after them to pay for it.


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[116710er]

RSC strikes again! Lol, I just went through a two year ordeal with RSC on my 14060. The value damage (at least for now) is minor compared to your 1675 but I still feel your pain. I would demand that they reinstall the original hands or find you correct hands with similar patina. Unless they can do either, they have damaged the value of the watch.

In my case, I ended up getting a full refund for the service, they found me an era correct insert and they replaced the bezel for no charge after I pointed out the damage (my guess is that they damaged the bezel while trying to install the wrong inserts). It was a HUGE headache and required a LOT of back of forth with them.

What I don't understand is what kind of drones do the work at RSC? Are they not able to follow some VERY SIMPLE instructions? Or are they so ham handed that they are just damaging watches and install service parts to cover it up and hope that they customer doesn't notice?

[southtexas]

You can replace them with era correct and similar patina’d hands. The only problem is executing on the plan...judging the hue of replacement hands over the Internet is very frustrating.


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[spoont]

That‘s insane and proof that nobody should ever send a valuable vintage piece to RSC. This is actually a huge devaluation of your watch and a nice tritium gmt handset runs more than 1k nowadays. I would definitely insist on having the old hands put back as the paper white lume on the hands looks horrible with nice creamy lume dots on the dial. Sorry to hear and hope you can get things sorted.


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[Andad]

Originally Posted by wsfarrell

Unfortunately, Rolex doesn't take instructions in these cases. They do whatever they think is necessary to restore the watch. If this were Omega, at least you would have gotten the old hands back. I would search eBay for a vintage handset and have a local watchmaker install it.

The RSC should have forwarded a quotation listing the cost of the service plus any parts they suggest should be replaced and require you to accept or reject the quotation?

Did this happen because those hands spoil the watch.

Do you have ‘before’ pictures?

[swaini3]

Originally Posted by Andad

The RSC should have forwarded a quotation listing the cost of the service plus any parts they suggest should be replaced and require you to accept or reject the quotation?

Did this happen because those hands spoil the watch.

Do you have ‘before’ pictures?

This..... Also, some things are mandatory, some are optional. If you decide to go against the "Mandatory" items they listed, they wont do the service. Some RSC's are a little more flexible than others.

[bmb15]

Originally Posted by spoont

That‘s insane and proof that nobody should ever send a valuable vintage piece to RSC.

I disagree with "nobody should ever send a valuable vintage piece to RSC". The quality of work probably depends on the specific RSC, but no evidence that a RSC in Bordeaux is better or worse than in London or any other locations.

Originally Posted by spoont

This is actually a huge devaluation of your watch and a nice tritium gmt handset runs more than 1k nowadays.

Not sure about the term 'huge', but I agree.

Originally Posted by spoont

I would definitely insist on having the old hands put back

Yes, but not sure if this RSC in Bordeaux still have the old hands, but the OP should certainly try and request that.

Originally Posted by Andad

The RSC should have forwarded a quotation listing the cost of the service plus any parts they suggest should be replaced and require you to accept or reject the quotation?

Exactly this!

Hello OP,

Several things are mandatory before you hand over your valuable watch to any RSC.

[1] A written document what you ask them to do and, more important, what they MUST not do and MUST not touch. I always take many photos to be able to compare before/after a service. I also measure the movement with a timegrapher before giving the watch to RSC.

[2] Then, RSC should (and certainly will) investigate your watch and submit you a written quote what they propose to do during the service, some things are mandatory, others optional. The quote will take time and the offer may contain options, e.g. to change something which you did not ask for, such as new hands and even the case. Rolex proposes sometimes an exchange of the watch case because otherwise they don’t want to guarantee water tightness. I would never accept a case change because water tightness is no issue for my vintages. If the offer is not detailed enough for you, then they should clarify and send you an update.

[3] Then you sign the (updated) offer and put your comments in, if you have any, e.g. you refer to your letter or E-mail in which you described the wished service, send it back.

[4] RSC is obliged to start their service works only after your signed approval of their quote.

Of course, all that might take a lot of time, also depending on the location (country) of the RSC. But, if you discover something after the service, as in your case, which you explicitly wrote that they must not touch, then you have all means to go against it. That’s the only way you can be sure. Nevertheless, things can go wrong, everywhere (e.g. service of your car etc.), but then Rolex will do their best to correct it, that’s my experience and view. I hope that long answer helps avoiding trouble, also for other watch owners.

Originally Posted by HDMW

How seriously has this replacement reduced the value of the watch?

That is not so easy to quantify in money. More important for me: I would not like the view, not at all, but this depends how the previous hands looked like (photos!?), you to judge.


Originally Posted by HDMW

Can anything be done to repair the damage?

Yes, as said, try to get the previously hands installed back, if you like them more, you to judge.

[zapokee]

Oh, my gosh. This is why we don't send vintage pieces to the RSC.

Regardless of requests discussed and "agreed" with the AD or RSC, these value-destroying phenomena are all too common. Once the order has passed through multiple Rolex staff members and the various steps involved in service, the details of the customer's request are diluted and lost.

Sorry for your troubles, OP.

[watchmaker]

Can you post a copy of the estimate you received before the work was carried out. It would be interesting to see what it states regarding the hands.

[bmb15]

Originally Posted by zapokee

Oh, my gosh. This is why we don't send vintage pieces to the RSC.

I agree, it is a heavy procedure and many might not want to follow that route.

Originally Posted by zapokee

Regardless of requests discussed and "agreed" with the AD or RSC, these value-destroying phenomena are all too common.

Until now, I cannot confirm that for my vintages, but if you (zapokee) say so than it’s probably a matter of fact, very sad.

[watchmaker]

Originally Posted by 116710er

...What I don't understand is what kind of drones do the work at RSC? Are they not able to follow some VERY SIMPLE instructions? Or are they so ham handed that they are just damaging watches and install service parts to cover it up and hope that they customer doesn't notice?

Larger service centres receive over 100,000 watches per year.

Out of all of these watches most will be repaired without a hitch. However some will have small problems, some will have big problems. Sometimes tritium crumbles when the hands are being removed. Sometimes bezel inserts deform. Some will get lost in transit, some will accidentally get thrown out with the post room trash instead of the package being opened.

My point is mistakes happen and everything that can go wrong will (given enough time) go wrong; that will never change.

When that means some peoples' perception of a brand or product is irreparably damaged there's nothing to be done except learn from it and move on.

This is not unique to the watch industry, it's just life.

[spoont]

Originally Posted by watchmaker

Larger service centres receive over 100,000 watches per year.

Out of all of these watches most will be repaired without a hitch. However some will have small problems, some will have big problems. Sometimes tritium crumbles when the hands are being removed. Sometimes bezel inserts deform. Some will get lost in transit, some will accidentally get thrown out with the post room trash instead of the package being opened.

My point is mistakes happen and everything that can go wrong will (given enough time) go wrong; that will never change.

When that means some peoples' perception of a brand or product is irreparably damaged there's nothing to be done except learn from it and move on.

This is not unique to the watch industry, it's just life.

Well said and I totally agree. Maybe the hands got bent (should not happend to an experienced watchmaker especially at a brand like Rolex though) or as you stated the trit lume was brittle. However, to me it‘s not acceptable that they just return the watch in the hope the customer won‘t notice or file a complaint. Moreover, it‘s highly unlikely that all 4 hands got messed up during service and the OP could at least just search the broken parts and reuse the preserved parts to bring it back to shape. In addition, it also looks as if they messed with the crown tube..


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[watchmaker]

Originally Posted by spoont

Well said and I totally agree. Maybe the hands got bent (should not happend to an experienced watchmaker especially at a brand like Rolex though) or as you stated the trit lume was brittle. However, to me it‘s not acceptable that they just return the watch in the hope the customer won‘t notice or file a complaint. Moreover, it‘s highly unlikely that all 4 hands got messed up during service and the OP could at least just search the broken parts and reuse the preserved parts to bring it back to shape. In addition, it also looks as if they messed with the crown tube..


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When presented with incomplete information and/or only one side of a story I endeavour to reserve judgment until all the facts are known.

As an aside; to address your point "should not happend to an experienced watchmaker especially at a brand like Rolex". Even the most experienced watchmakers make mistakes (they just make fewer of them). Which company you work for nor how many years you do the job will ever change that. The same is true of every profession.

[PVR]

Been collecting watches for about 20 years and in that time I have heard hundreds of stories like these in get togethers, with vintage dealers, reading online forums, etc.

NEVER EVER EVER SEND A VINTAGE ROLEX WATCH TO ROLEX SERVICE CENTERS

I dont care who disagrees with me, I would never and will never. If its a modern piece, then they are certainly the best option, but for vintage they are the worst option. Why? Let me list a few reasons..

1. They do not listen to your request. When they get to working on the watch they will replace whatever they deem necessary in order to get the watch to "rolex" standards. Old crown? GONE, its not water proof. Old hands? GONE, they may crumble and gum up the movement and they no longer glow. Get the idea?

2. They are prohibitively expensive without merit. They charge $1500 to service a movement, I pay an ex Rolex watchmaker $300 to do the exact same thing.

3. They will not return your parts. Even if you agree to allow them to change your $3000 fat font insert or heavy patina Gilt Dial, you arent getting it back. They say they "destroy" the parts, but in the past I have heard some make their way out to the marketplace.

4. You have no recourse. You can sue but you will lose. You can scream and complain but their contract allows them to do essentially whatever they want.

Its a sad story that many of us have heard too many times. Find an independent watchmaker to do any sort of service, stay away from RSC

[spoont]

Originally Posted by PVR

Been collecting watches for about 20 years and in that time I have heard hundreds of stories like these in get togethers, with vintage dealers, reading online forums, etc.

NEVER EVER EVER SEND A VINTAGE ROLEX WATCH TO ROLEX SERVICE CENTERS

I dont care who disagrees with me, I would never and will never. If its a modern piece, then they are certainly the best option, but for vintage they are the worst option. Why? Let me list a few reasons..

1. They do not listen to your request. When they get to working on the watch they will replace whatever they deem necessary in order to get the watch to "rolex" standards. Old crown? GONE, its not water proof. Old hands? GONE, they may crumble and gum up the movement and they no longer glow. Get the idea?

2. They are prohibitively expensive without merit. They charge $1500 to service a movement, I pay an ex Rolex watchmaker $300 to do the exact same thing.

3. They will not return your parts. Even if you agree to allow them to change your $3000 fat font insert or heavy patina Gilt Dial, you arent getting it back. They say they "destroy" the parts, but in the past I have heard some make their way out to the marketplace.

4. You have no recourse. You can sue but you will lose. You can scream and complain but their contract allows them to do essentially whatever they want.

Its a sad story that many of us have heard too many times. Find an independent watchmaker to do any sort of service, stay away from RSC

Enough said! Great input, sad but true. Same goes for IWC btw..


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[Dan S]

I wonder if the OP accidentally approved this replacement after receiving the quote. In the US, at least, RSC generally sends a quote outlining the scope of work, with mandatory and optional items, as mentioned above. IIRC, they wait for approval before performing the work. Perhaps it is different in France.

[springer]

A set of matching tritium hands and a correct bezel insert (the one on the watch now is a service replacement) could set you back at least $3,000.

[swish77]

The OP said he gave the watch to a "Rolex agent." I wonder what that means exactly.

Perhaps the GMT was handed over to a Rolex AD who then dealt with the RSC but failed to explain the owner's full instructions about how to handle the service and not replace the hands.

Surprises me that any RSC would change hands without prior approval, mainly because the OP will have to pay for them and RSC's usually need to confirm the owner is OK with that. But if an AD handled it and said "perform a service and do whatever you think is needed," then perhaps there could be a problem.

I know sending vintage Rolexes to RSCs is frowned upon in the hobby, but there are still plenty of owners (myself included) who have had good experiences getting movement-only services at RSCs (touch wood.)

[zapokee]

Originally Posted by Dan S

In the US, at least, RSC generally sends a quote outlining the scope of work, with mandatory and optional items, as mentioned above. IIRC, they wait for approval before performing the work. Perhaps it is different in France.

Definitely different in Japan. In my experience they won't take any requests at all - nothing is optional.

Maybe they're super-careful in the States because the culture there tends to be more litigious...

RSC policies (or maybe how individual staff interpret them) seem to differ significantly worldwide.

[Filipão]

Indeed @zapokee-san.

I have had many of my vintage serviced without replacing whatever I don't want to.

But I have to do it in writing.

[Styles Bitchley]

Originally Posted by zapokee

Definitely different in Japan. In my experience they won't take any requests at all - nothing is optional.

Maybe they're super-careful in the States because the culture there tends to be more litigious...

RSC policies (or maybe how individual staff interpret them) seem to differ significantly worldwide.

Not just the States. Same process in Canada and Switzerland in my experience. Seems like Japan may be unique that way.

[bmb15]

Originally Posted by zapokee

Definitely different in Japan. In my experience they won't take any requests at all - nothing is optional.

Interesting and surprising (no options). I recently asked for a movement service and a quote for an optional 93150 bracelet, and I received that with the option.

Originally Posted by zapokee

RSC policie .... seem to differ significantly worldwide.

Yes and this may explain the huge differences observed and reported here for RSC's

[bmb15]

Originally Posted by Filipão

I have had many of my vintage serviced without replacing whatever I don't want to. But I have to do it in writing.

This! And I never ever got old and (exchanged) pieces back. Rolex does not want that RSC's return them. A new bracelet, for example, you only get in exchange with the installed one, if you leave the installed for the service....

[bmb15]

Originally Posted by Dan S

I wonder if the OP accidentally approved this replacement after receiving the quote.

Yes, the OP should deliver the quote for his watch

Originally Posted by Dan S

Perhaps it is different in France.

Probably not, but many things are different in France ...

[zapokee]

Originally Posted by bmb15

Interesting and surprising (no options). I recently asked for a movement service and a quote for an optional 93150 bracelet, and I received that with the option.

Sure. Tokyo RSC will provide you with a new bracelet. But they insisted on changing the dial/hands on three separate watches that I put in for movement-only service quotations. The watches were in decent condition and didn't need these changes, but my only option was to accept their suggestion or refuse the service. They seem to focus on just making watches new again.

[bmb15]

Originally Posted by zapokee

Sure. Tokyo RSC will provide you with a new bracelet. But they insisted on changing the dial/hands on three separate watches that I put in for movement-only service quotations. The watches were in decent condition and didn't need these changes, but my only option was to accept their suggestion or refuse the service. They seem to focus on just making watches new again.

Thanks for clarifying, what you report from Tokyo RSC is horrible for me. I have the same approach for my vintages: only service of the movement, no touch on anything else, that works in Switzerland, but better deliver requests in writing. Concrete examples (like yours) help to clarify why the views of RSC's are so fundamentally different, worldwide.

[Verdi]

OP needs to come back and provide some details.

Im, of course, against any alteration to a vintage piece but Id like to see how this happened.
Was it done without any prior communication?!


PS: keep it simple, folks, dont send valuable vintage pieces to RSC. They approach is simply not compatible to preserving a vintage piece.