IWC Big Pilot: Dark history?

[dannyp]

I'd always loved the design of the IWC pilot watches. In fact, I own one, a Mk XVI, that traces its roots back to the watches supplied to the RAF during WWII. I'd always loved the Big Pilot design, too. Then, I learned a little more about it...

It seems that this series pays tribute to another military pilot watch, but one only supplied to the Luftwaffe. That IWC supplied any paying customer during WWII is what it is, but why bring back one designed for the Nazis?!?! Am I the only one who has a problem with that and would decline to buy said watch as a result (if it fit me in the first place, lol)?

https://www.watchtime.com/featured/f...-pilots-watch/

[Gary Busey]

Originally Posted by dannyp

I'd always loved the design of the IWC pilot watches. In fact, I own one, a Mk XVI, that traces its roots back to the watches supplied to the RAF during WWII. I'd always loved the Big Pilot design, too. Then, I learned a little more about it...

It seems that this series pays tribute to another military pilot watch, but one only supplied to the Luftwaffe. That IWC supplied any paying customer during WWII is what it is, but why bring back one designed for the Nazis?!?! Am I the only one who has a problem with that and would decline to buy said watch as a result (if it fit me in the first place, lol)?

https://www.watchtime.com/featured/f...-pilots-watch/

No issues with it.
IBM supplied the Nazis, so did Hugo Boss. The US sells weapons to terrorists all the time. Problem with your stance is that it judges said companies with today’s hindsight. I get it’s a thin line. I would not buy a watch that was designed for the Kmer Rouge, or issued to Gulag only guards. But this is about military heritage, and I’m able to draw that line.
This was really designed specifically for only the Luftwaffe??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nav01L]

Honestly, I don’t think they supplied much to the RAF during WW II, the mark series dates back to 1948-9, long after the war.

The big pilot in contrast is indeed based on Bauanweisung (Fl 23883), a directive of the German (NS) Reichsluftfahrministerium.

But along comes the question whether goods are tainted by their past. A watch is not a weapon, and IWC supplied these out of Switzerland’s desire not to aggravate a power that was about to surround the country fully. What you have to understand is that Switzerland cannot (and already could not at the time) feed itself autonomously. They had to trade something with whomever was able to send them potatoes. I live on the Reduit line, on the edge of the alps that would have been the last line of defense. There is not a bit of wood around our house that doesn’t have pillboxes, tank barriers and concrete trenches in it. The Swiss really did the best they could. And what they put together as a deterrent is impressive. But in the greater scope, they would have been overrun within weeks, and if not, they could easily have been starved. So can you really blame them for having ensured their freedom by trading what they had to offer with the enemy instead of loosing large parts of country and population by retreating to the mountains that would have seen them slowly starve into submission?

If you see a problem with that, that’s still fair. But then you can’t drive a Porsche (a brand developed by the son of an avid Nazi who developed some of the most fearsome German tanks) or an AUDI (Auto Union was owned by the Saxonian State Bank at the time, and was therefore factually a government manufacturer who did a lot to help the Nazi regime establish goodwill with the people), or a VW (don’t even start to read up on their history), or a BMW (the logo depicts the propellers of the very Heinkel bombers that flattened London)… heck, by that token, your best bet would be a Mercedes… and even they used slave labor, not to mention the fact Hitler liked to be driven in their cars a lot.

[GB-man]

Good points but I think the roundel airplane story is untrue and it’s just the colors representing their specific region of Germany. Even though they did indeed get started in airplanes. Maybe I’m wrong but that’s how i remember it.

[kunlun]

Rolex was anti-nazi. Breguet, obviously, as they later worked with the French airforce, are clean. Panerai's history is complex.
Modern ALS has no real connection with anything of that era, name aside. Most Swiss brands are likely fine. The german style pilot watches are sus, as the kids say. Just get a Breguet type XX or XXI. Problem solved!

[scarlet knight]

No one who works at IWC today was alive in the Nazi era. It’s not like they supplied military armaments. I am an IWC owner and a member of the most oppressed religious group. I have no problem based on what I know.

I also own an Audi, Zwilling knives and many other well made German products. We’ve been to Germany twice, we have German friends and we hope for peace, love and understanding among all people.

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by Nav01L

But along comes the question whether goods are tainted by their past. A watch is not a weapon, and IWC supplied these out of Switzerland’s desire not to aggravate a power that was about to surround the country fully.

This has little to do with the fact that IWC supplied the Nazis during WWII (many did; they didn't bounce checks). Rather, it's about the questionable judgement of producing a tribute to the model produced for the Nazis now that we do have the benefit of hindsight.

That IWC supplied watches to the Luftwaffe at the time is entirely understandable, for the reasons you cite. And, despite the fact that the Luftwaffe was founded by a member of Hitler's inner circle, I can also separate a country wanting to win a war from a regime committing the most horrific atrocities of the century.

However, today, most would want to distance their current product lines from the past. Just like very narrow mustaches are unlikely to be a "thing" again, I question the wisdom of saying "Ooh, let's remake that thing we built for Goering."

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by scarlet knight

No one who works at IWC today was alive in the Nazi era. It’s not like they supplied military armaments. I am an IWC owner and a member of the most oppressed religious group. I have no problem based on what I know.

I also own an Audi, Zwilling knives and many other well made German products. We’ve been to Germany twice, we have German friends and we hope for peace, love and understanding among all people.

Again, as an IWC-owning Jew, I don't hold the company's past activity against it. More of an image thing, deciding to essentially do the "reissue" of a model specific to the Luftwaffe. And while I wear my Mk XVI frequently, I'd find it hard to wear a Big Pilot knowing what model it's based on.

It would be like Hugo Boss saying: "Ok, how about this, we do pants that are super baggy from the knee up, but narrow at the bottom, to tuck into knee-high boots." Just not a good idea.

[scarlet knight]

Originally Posted by dannyp

Again, as an IWC-owning Jew, I don't hold the company's past activity against it. More of an image thing, deciding to essentially do the "reissue" of a model specific to the Luftwaffe. And while I wear my Mk XVI frequently, I'd find it hard to wear a Big Pilot knowing what model it's based on.

It would be like Hugo Boss saying: "Ok, how about this, we do pants that are super baggy from the knee up, but narrow at the bottom, to tuck into knee-high boots." Just not a good idea.

We don’t need a tribute to the Luftwaffe watch.

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by dannyp

This has little to do with the fact that IWC supplied the Nazis during WWII (many did; they didn't bounce checks). Rather, it's about the questionable judgement of producing a tribute to the model produced for the Nazis now that we do have the benefit of hindsight.

That IWC supplied watches to the Luftwaffe at the time is entirely understandable, for the reasons you cite. And, despite the fact that the Luftwaffe was founded by a member of Hitler's inner circle, I can also separate a country wanting to win a war from a regime committing the most horrific atrocities of the century.

However, today, most would want to distance their current product lines from the past. Just like very narrow mustaches are unlikely to be a "thing" again, I question the wisdom of saying "Ooh, let's remake that thing we built for Goering."

Good point, but on the other hand, everyone conveniently forgot von Braun’s past when he successfully re-issued the V2 with bigger thrusters and sent a couple Omegas to the moon. And before Covid, we all happily sat into jet powered aluminum tubes to fly wherever we needed to go, that can easily trace their heritage to the Messerschmitt ME262. Every self respecting car nut revers the silver arrows, without losing much of a thought to the fact they were a Nazi propaganda tool. Heck, the Auto Union record cars had swastikas on the side of them.

My point is, good design and engineering ends up bringing humanity forward no matter who invented it and what it was used for at any particular point in time. And the Baumuster A is arguably one of the best watch designs ever made - unfortunately by engineers who worked in furtherance of a particularly despicable cause, but like I mentioned above, so are the rockets that took us off the planet and the jet engines that take us around it.

And we should not forget either that we are using tons of things today that may not go back to Nazi Germany, but are made in terrible ways nonetheless. The iPhone just celebrated its first year of being entirely child labor free… wait how long have we had these phones? And does that cover the cobalt in the battery? At this very moment, VW is happily bolstering its share price with cars produced in the immediate proximity of Chinese forced labor camps… and still have the VW Beetle among their “icons” to fully bring it back to Nazi Germany… so while Nazi Germany is indisputably one of Europe’s darkest hours, it’s not like it’s all been honkey dorey since…

[Watch2019]

Originally Posted by dannyp

I'd always loved the design of the IWC pilot watches. In fact, I own one, a Mk XVI, that traces its roots back to the watches supplied to the RAF during WWII. I'd always loved the Big Pilot design, too. Then, I learned a little more about it...

It seems that this series pays tribute to another military pilot watch, but one only supplied to the Luftwaffe. That IWC supplied any paying customer during WWII is what it is, but why bring back one designed for the Nazis?!?! Am I the only one who has a problem with that and would decline to buy said watch as a result (if it fit me in the first place, lol)?

https://www.watchtime.com/featured/f...-pilots-watch/

Glanced through the link. Which watch is the tribute to the watch only supplied to the Luftwaffe in the past? Or are you referring to the whole series of watches listed in the article? Pardon my ignorance of Pilot watches in general (though I find some of them attractive, particularly Moser’s and Zenith’s pilot watches).

I understand some people also have issues with Sinn watches due to the association with Nazi Germany? Think in this case it was due to the founder being a pilot in the military or something along those lines.

I have no such qualms. I view it as a style of watches. And like all styles, it is designed a certain way so that it can be functional. I don’t think the style of watches was designed to further the Nazi ideology though it may be used for such a purpose. Another way to look at it is to ask if IWC would have supplied the same style of watches to the British or Americans if they had requested an exclusive contract from them before the Nazis.

Likewise, being Asian, I don’t object to colonial architecture. I view it as a style prevalent during that questionable period in question, not in furtherance of colonialism, just contemporaneous. My 2 cents.

[ts3]

Who knows whether the Big Pilot has been a success because people felt the Luftwaffe must have known how to spec a great pilot watch, if they didn't care or looked through the Luftwaffe origins, or if they simply didn't know the background just like OP but wouldn't want one had they known.

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem if I liked the Big Pilot or found it useful for my purposes. However, it is clearly not my style and too much of a weight penalty when I go flying LOL. Much prefer my Mark XV beater which I appreciate for being a great tool watch rather than any post WWII RAF heritage.

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by Gary Busey

This was really designed specifically for only the Luftwaffe??

Not only for, but BY the Luftwaffe (Reichsluftfahrtministerium), which then contracted production out to Laco, Stowa, IWC and Lange.

But as I said above, it was such a good design that it outlasted its origins significantly. It's not like the RAF approached IWC by mere happenstance after the war either. They clearly wanted a version of what IWC had been doing during the war, albeit with certain tweaks. The Mark 11 and all that followed are just as "tainted" as any other pilot watch done by IWC. They are all references to the same original Baumuster A. So the OP's distinction in that respect is a bit artificial.

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by Nav01L

Not only for, but BY the Luftwaffe (Reichsluftfahrtministerium), which then contracted production out to Laco, Stowa, IWC and Lange.

But as I said above, it was such a good design that it outlasted its origins significantly. It's not like the RAF approached IWC by mere happenstance after the war either. They clearly wanted a version of what IWC had been doing during the war, albeit with certain tweaks. The Mark 11 and all that followed are just as "tainted" as any other pilot watch done by IWC. They are all references to the same original Baumuster A. So the OP's distinction in that respect is a bit artificial.

But I'm referring to the Big Pilot range specifically, which was made for the Luftwaffe during the war, and then revived 60 years later as a fashion statement. It's not the entire Fliegeruhr line, which has been in consistent production for decades and has evolved from the designs for military pilots regardless of which side they flew for. It's the decision to say (after 60 years dormancy): "Ok, let's do a new watch, based on a very distinct design, designed by, and built solely for, the Nazis."

The Mark XI was hardly "tainted" as it shared few of the original Big Pilot's unique visual characteristics (almost 20mm smaller diameter, standard size crown).

Once again, not talking about the fact that IWC supplied the Germans during the war, nor the technical know-how developed while doing so. This is solely about one very, very visually distinct design, with a specific unsavory origin, that's been brought back as a fashion statement.

IWC has done other tribute watches before, reviving long-shelved designs. The hand-wound pilot watch that was part of its "Vintage" series a decade or so ago is a great example. That was based specifically on the Big Pilot's predecessor and a very cool piece.

The BP is just one I probably would have left shelved.

Also, IWC seems to have no qualms about broadcasting the watch's history:

https://www.iwc.com/en/articles/jour...l-watches.html

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by scarlet knight

We don’t need a tribute to the Luftwaffe watch.

Exactly. Perhaps IWC sees no difference between the Luftwaffe and any other branch of the German armed forces during WWII. I can understand that, though don't agree with it.

For example, I'd have far fewer qualms about wearing a watch specifically based on the field watch Rommel ordered for Panzer drivers in North Africa (no idea if this exists, this is hypothetical).

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by Watch2019

Likewise, being Asian, I don’t object to colonial architecture. I view it as a style prevalent during that questionable period in question, not in furtherance of colonialism, just contemporaneous. My 2 cents.

This is a great example to go on. Would you see a difference between the colonial architectural style in general, and a building built today specifically reminiscent of a certain individual building of the era associated with specific colonial-era atrocities?

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by dannyp

Exactly. Perhaps IWC sees no difference between the Luftwaffe and any other branch of the German armed forces during WWII. I can understand that, though don't agree with it.

For example, I'd have far fewer qualms about wearing a watch specifically based on the field watch Rommel ordered for Panzer drivers in North Africa (no idea if this exists, this is hypothetical).

How is the Wehrmacht better than the Luftwaffe? Now you lost me entirely. Rommel was very close to Goebbels and loved being stylized as a hero of the Wehrmacht. He was as much of a purveyor of the NS ideology as all the others, how else would he have come to lead Hitler's personal detail?

Yes, he fell victim to the paranoia of the sick monster he helped create. But there is still no evidence he was ever involved with Stauffenberg's attempt to free the world from Hitler, even though that's what cost him his life.

The myth of a "clean" Wehrmacht has been debunked for close to 40 years now, and as the grandson of someone who was drafted into the Wehrmacht against his will and sent to the Russian front at only 16 years old to wake up every morning under a tank, next to the frozen corpses of his fellow soldiers, only to punish him for missing out on HJ, I thoroughly refuse to make any effort to understand some people's romantic views of the Wehrmacht.

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by dannyp

But I'm referring to the Big Pilot range specifically, which was made for the Luftwaffe during the war, and then revived 60 years later as a fashion statement. It's not the entire Fliegeruhr line, which has been in consistent production for decades and has evolved from the designs for military pilots regardless of which side they flew for. It's the decision to say (after 60 years dormancy): "Ok, let's do a new watch, based on a very distinct design, designed by, and built solely for, the Nazis."

The Mark XI was hardly "tainted" as it shared few of the original Big Pilot's unique visual characteristics (almost 20mm smaller diameter, standard size crown).

Once again, not talking about the fact that IWC supplied the Germans during the war, nor the technical know-how developed while doing so. This is solely about one very, very visually distinct design, with a specific unsavory origin, that's been brought back as a fashion statement.

IWC has done other tribute watches before, reviving long-shelved designs. The hand-wound pilot watch that was part of its "Vintage" series a decade or so ago is a great example. That was based specifically on the Big Pilot's predecessor and a very cool piece.

The BP is just one I probably would have left shelved.

Also, IWC seems to have no qualms about broadcasting the watch's history:

https://www.iwc.com/en/articles/jour...l-watches.html

As I said, the Baumuster A is objectively a great watch design and it outlasted the horrible political system it was created in. Just like the jet engine, the rocket that propelled us to the moon and the VW beetle. Great engineering has no ideology, it works, ideally for anyone. The watch then went on to inspire everything that followed, such as the mark 11. By virtue of doing so, whether you like it or not, it is the "original". As such, there has been demand for it from many people (it was always available at Laco, and has been for a long time from Stowa too), which presumably are for the very large majority not at all fond of anything that happened in the 30/40ies in Germany. Or do you really believe anyone who owns a watch based on the Baumuster A or B wears it to somehow signify sympathy for the Nazis?

That is why Georges brought it back in form of the Big Pilot, which was a great success for the brand. I do concur though that Chris Grainger calling it "Spitfire" now is a bit on the nose.

[Horationelson]

I have no issue with the model/design history, but I can absolutely understand why someone (a Jew or other minority whose ancestors may have been persecuted by Nazis) might not want to wear a watch which is based on a design that was specifically made to assist the Nazi campaign in any way.

My military history isn’t that strong, but I’d guess that the Luftwaffe did more damage to British/French property/lives than it did to Jews on the continent. The Luftwaffe certainly played a part in the Nazi campaign but sadly I think the Nazis had other ways to target the Jews.

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by Horationelson

I have no issue with the model/design history, but I can absolutely understand why someone (a Jew or other minority whose ancestors may have been persecuted by Nazis) might not want to wear a watch which is based on a design that was specifically made to assist the Nazi campaign in any way.

My military history isn’t that strong, but I’d guess that the Luftwaffe did more damage to British/French property/lives than it did to Jews on the continent. The Luftwaffe certainly played a part in the Nazi campaign but sadly I think the Nazis had other ways to target the Jews.

Hermann Göring led the Luftwaffe.
Hermann Göring was also Reichsminister and built the concentration camps.
Hermann Göring founded the Gestapo.
Hermann Göring mandated Heydrich to devise the “final solution” of the Jewish matter how they despicably called what we now call the gas chambers.
Hermann Göring was later minister of the economy and orchestrated forced labor production.

The planes may not have bombed many Jews, but how many died making the planes and the bombs… or otherwise by the hand of the man who commanded them.

[Horationelson]

I get that, but Goring didn’t design the IWC Big Pilot. There are unpleasant connotations as noted, but I wouldn’t take the point too far.

That being said, I probably wouldn’t buy a Big Pilot now that I know this side of the history. Happy to keep my German car but I don’t see how my Audi has much relationship to the Nazi empire, in contrast to a watch design which still pays homage to an earlier design which had the aim of helping the Nazis advance across Europe/the World.

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by Nav01L

Hermann Göring led the Luftwaffe.
Hermann Göring was also Reichsminister and built the concentration camps.
Hermann Göring founded the Gestapo.
Hermann Göring mandated Heydrich to devise the “final solution” of the Jewish matter how they despicably called what we now call the gas chambers.
Hermann Göring was later minister of the economy and orchestrated forced labor production.

The planes may not have bombed many Jews, but how many died making the planes and the bombs… or otherwise by the hand of the man who commanded them.

This would also be my answer to your question above, about the Wehrmacht vs. Luftwaffe. Much less about their respective roles in the war than the roles their respective leaders played in the other aspects of the regime.

No, the Wehrmacht wasn't as clean as it is perhaps sometimes made out to be, people like Rommel could have done a lot more than they did, and certainly didn't stand against what was happening, but, to your point, it wasn't led by Göring.

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by Horationelson

I don’t see how my Audi has much relationship to the Nazi empire

Read more a few posts up. That said, while I currently drive a Volvo, I don't know that I wouldn't ever drive a German car. In fact, my grandfather (whose brother died in the camps) drove nothing but Mercedes for the second half of his life.

[Lemieux66]

I read somewhere that most of the BMW shares are owned by relatives of Joseph Goebbels...

I’d happily buy any of the items mentioned in this thread if I wanted them. Doing so doesn’t promote any particular political ideology.

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by dannyp

This would also be my answer to your question above, about the Wehrmacht vs. Luftwaffe. Much less about their respective roles in the war than the roles their respective leaders played in the other aspects of the regime.

No, the Wehrmacht wasn't as clean as it is perhaps sometimes made out to be, people like Rommel could have done a lot more than they did, and certainly didn't stand against what was happening, but, to your point, it wasn't led by Göring.

I’m not sure we’ll get into a healthy argument there. Keitel and the OKW are some of the worst war criminals the modern world has seen. You may want to read up on the Sühnebefehl doctrine to get a better understanding of how they were instructing their troops. This led to horrendous massacres in places like Poland, Russia and when the Italians capitulated in 43, in Italy as well, where incidentally it was Rommel who oversaw the SS’ retaliation against the civilian population. Infamous characters like Peiper and his SS tank battalion were part of Rommel’s troops when they committed atrocities like the massacre of Boves.

I think we should not pursue this race to the bottom of human made horror any longer and instead conclude it with the realization that fascism gives rise to the very worst in the most unsavory of characters, across the board. There is no admiration to be had for the Nazi leadership, regardless of which branch of the military they happened to lead. Conversely one branch was not more honorable than another.

With that said, instead of relegating this entire period to oblivion for the atrocities it yielded, I believe we should conserve the memory and knowledge we have of it as a warning which may be ever so timely when about 30% of the world’s most powerful nation has developed an unsettling passion for red baseball caps.

And just as the resilience against fascism we should derive from what happened has a value, so have some of the technological advancements we could salvage from the period. Like I said, that’s partly what allowed us to jet around the world before the pandemic and Greta had us think twice about that. And that’s also how I view the IWC big pilot, and the pilot chrono it inspired (and that I’m wearing as I type this).

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by dannyp

Read more a few posts up. That said, while I currently drive a Volvo, I don't know that I wouldn't ever drive a German car. In fact, my grandfather (whose brother died in the camps) drove nothing but Mercedes for the second half of his life.

Oddly enough among the large Germans, Mercedes might actually have been the least worst. Unlike others, they had the benefit of already being a pretty well established company by the time that sad chapter came upon Germany. Of course, they, like every large company sought proximity to the government as a matter of opportunism and a little less than half of the top management were NSDAP members at some point, but they were not as closely tied to the regime as VW and Auto Union (Audi) that literally belonged to the regime. BMW was not great either, they were one of the first manufacturers to have their own concentration camp (Dachau Allach).

But even at Mercedes, things were pretty horrendous. They started in 1937 to build military trucks and airplane engines for the military. Towards the end of the war, almost half of the workforce at Daimler was forced labor. And after the war, there are indications that Daimler subsidiaries in South America may also have served as “golden parachutes” for NS dignitaries that fled there, mainly to Argentina. At least they have a pretty open and honest approach to that chapter of their history today and have been engaged in reparation efforts for more than two decades. I don’t think one could say as much of anything VW group (Audi, Porsche, VW in particular).

The Goebbels association with BMW also dates from after the war. Daimler wanted to purchase and absorb the company in the late fifties. It was “saved” from this absorption by the son of a rich industrial named Quandt. Quandt had died early and his wife had gone on to marry Goebbels, with whom she raised said son and five further children. Martha Goebbels killed her children before she committed suicide in the end of the war, but not her son from her first marriage, who then went on to purchase BMW. The family owns the company to this day.

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by Nav01L

I think we should not pursue this race to the bottom of human made horror any longer and instead conclude it with the realization that fascism gives rise to the very worst in the most unsavory of characters, across the board. There is no admiration to be had for the Nazi leadership, regardless of which branch of the military they happened to lead. Conversely one branch was not more honorable than another.

With that said, instead of relegating this entire period to oblivion for the atrocities it yielded, I believe we should conserve the memory and knowledge we have of it as a warning which may be ever so timely when still about 30% of the world’s most powerful nation has developed an unsettling passion for red baseball caps.

Agreed. One point of clarification: NONE of my comments were intended to convey any admiration for any branch of the German military of the period because you're right, they were all awful. My comment was solely on acknowledging (some) separation between Naziism and the German military as a whole. But, to your point, when talking about "war crimes" vs. "crimes against humanity" it can only be a race to the bottom.

To your second point, about "red hats," yes, this is quite unsettling. However I'll admit I wasn't truly scared until watching the recent Netflix documentary on Hitler's inner circle. The history is fascinating in that the key takeaway was:

Nazi Germany: What happens when a group of third-rate douchebags says "Yes we can!"

Originally Posted by Nav01L

And after the war, there are indications that Daimler subsidiaries in South America may also have served as “golden parachutes” for NS dignitaries that fled there, mainly to Argentina.

That's what Eichmann was doing when Mossad found him...

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by dannyp

What happens when a group of third-rate douchebags says "Yes we can!”

What’s most shocking to me is how many seemingly respectable folks become sadly opportunistic when that happens and find a way to justify their joining the effort rather than suffocating it back into its initial irrelevance.

[Nav01L]

So, now we discussed all this, anyone here who likes Panerai?

[Justindo]

The problem with purity tests is that no one can pass them.