Red Sub Mark IV 1680 Dial

[grapepudding]

Hi Rolex Forums,

This is my first post but I have been a long time viewer so please be gentle.

I was looking to buy a 1680 Red Sub and came across this example for 20k USD. As this is my first major vintage purchase (I am a noobie), I was hoping to call in the experts!

Please feel free to critique my evaluation.

From what I can tell, it's a 2.4MM serial Mk. 4 1680. Hands and dial seem original and matching patina, the pearl/pip has been replaced and glows under UV light (unlike the hands/dial). Caseback is stamped 1-70 and the bracelet is 1-71.

I understand that Mark IV dials generally started at the 2.45 MM serials however I've seen examples on the forums in the 2.37 range. If you have any feedback or corrections on the above, I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks!

[zapokee]

The replacement pip isn't an issue - it's a very small detail, and it matches the lume well enough. Early seventies is correct for a MK IV dial. The lume plots also have the light waffle texture typical of the era.

My III.71 MK IV is 3.3 mil SN, so your 2.4 mil would be on the early side for a Red, as you say. I'd ask about the light mark that appears to be on the dial across the top of the Rolex coronet. It might just be a reflection onthe crystal.

The main thing that would concern me is the low price tag of 20k. I'd be expecting more toward 30 for a Red Sub with no dial damage and a decent case. Is the seller reputable?

[Dan S]

Hard to say too much from one photo, but I like the dial.

[MrChamfers]

the crown guards seem to be ground down somewhat, but that's a minor drawback for such a great price.

[grapepudding]

Thanks all! the seller said the price is aggressive because he is not a vintage dealer however a customer wanted to make this watch part of a deal involving another piece.

The seller is has numerous reviews on TRF, seemingly held in extremely high regard.

[Subterranean]

Nice looking watch

[onthedial]

@grapepudding

The dial looks ok, but appears to have lume loss/shrinkage on several of the hour plots. The hands may have been relumed (something to inquire about). Your pics don't offer a good representation of the lugs, but from what I can see the sides look to have been polished aggressively. Has this made the lugs unacceptably thin? That's something you'll have to weigh, in relation to the asking price.
----
IG: @onthedial

[TuRo]

All good to me - no nibbling of minute markers by rehaut is nice, I expect wear on case for 20 bags of sand (and the south east lug has the most) - it has original correct crown but a 2000s stepped acrylic service item but ho hum no biggy - no one's mentioned it but I peeped a rivet bracelet to which it might not be original.... but they are nice and $1500 if C and I one - which feel like they are made from a turkey tray granted but are rareish (have equal width across links and c and I stamping c and I on bracelet) but the Swiss eg 7206 20mm go for a good $3000 if a Swiss made (wider middle link) item!.
Edit looks C and I from last photo.
All in all 20 is 2017 price or a 2020 on a leather strap price... so amazing !!

[karleone]

Watch is over polished. Lugs are very thin, chamfers are gone! V brushing on lugs grain different from Rolex factory finish, polished parts doesn’t have a flat surface, springbars very close to lugholes. For a first vintage Rolex you absolutely need to learn more about vintage and buy from a reputable and well known Rolex vintage dealer.

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by karleone

Watch is over polished. Lugs are very thin, chamfers are gone! V brushing on lugs grain different from Rolex factory finish, polished parts doesn’t have a flat surface, springbars very close to lugholes. For a first vintage Rolex you absolutely need to learn more about vintage and buy from a reputable and well known Rolex vintage dealer.

Guess it comes from what end of the telescope a person is looking from ! - i.e. if you are a buyer that has been buying 5 digits in the main hitherto, it may not pass muster as they are used to newish - but if you've been buying old 50s subs, togs, J.C.Ks, pre-daytonas and GMTs since the mid 70s where many will have a bit of wear (as they were not considered that collectable back then), then tbh a buyer may have different perspective on some case/wear and polishing.
Remind me of someone in Italy who has one of the largest Rolex collections said to me in the 90s 'If buying a Rembrandt would a buyer at auction overly critique the gilt frame it's in that much l...probably not' (and while I don't encourage it I've sat with the chap who does the 316 case refurbishing for RSC in the UK and I can tell you he can make that case look like new for £500-600 incl perfectly judged chamfers (and for some academic research I passed a few over to my radiologist pal who said no visible change on built up 316 cases... only on 904 steel was it tiny bit visible on X Ray), so I think the fetishism around cases is a bit overblown tbh)
When buying vintage I'd 'gently' suggest to the OP or any collector, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good especially when 2/3s of going rate!... and these Reds will no doubt be min of $40k in 10 years way the Whites are catching up... so if you can live with a bit of wear I'd say snaffle it, and move on and look for the next otherwise you'll be kicking yourself in 2 or 3 yrs - of course if you want a perfect one then just pay $30k - there simply is no right or wrong !

[Pete_mcC]

Originally Posted by pauldavidthorpe

When buying vintage I'd 'gently' suggest to the OP or any collector, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good especially when 2/3s of going rate!

This is it. I’d be more concerned with a perfect looking watch at $20K, in fact I’d be more concerned about any 40 year old watch with no visible signs of wear or polish. These are vintage tool watches from the days when people wore them rather than today when people obsess over finger oil on their brand new ‘IG ready’ Hulk. A polished and serviced watch is a loved watch

At 20k this watch is a good deal. It’s not a top end example but it’s way off a top end price. I’d have loved this as my entry into vintage

[grapepudding]

Thanks everyone for the information and for weighing in so far.

To me, I am happy to live with the level of wear on the case as it's something that won't bother me daily and from what I can tell/what others have mentioned above, the asking price is very reasonable (and then some). While I generally don't like to buy the cheapest house on the most expensive block, this seems a little too good given I have my eye on the 1680.

A few more details (and pictures) now that I'm home:
Bracelet C&I: stamped 1-71
Caseback stamped 1-70

[storm66]

Buy and enjoy

[Swearengen]

This

I sometimes ask myself do those guys who join the chorus of "over polished" actual own mint watches or in fact own any vintages pieces at all



[QUOTE=pauldavidthorpe;12030035]
When buying vintage I'd 'gently' suggest to the OP or any collector, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good especially when 2/3s of going rate!...

[TuRo]

Thanks me too, and well said ... I thought I was the only one in the wilderness - a weary, wry smile, is shared with you !

[zapokee]

Originally Posted by Swearengen

This

I sometimes ask myself do those guys who join the chorus of "over polished" actual own mint watches or in fact own any vintages pieces at all

Agree. This one's been expertly detailed with nice correct brushing and sharp chamfers.

Professional and sympathetic treatment like this is a thumbs up for me. I certainly wouldn't call it overpolished.

[Pete_mcC]

Originally Posted by Swearengen

This

I sometimes ask myself do those guys who join the chorus of "over polished" actual own mint watches or in fact own any vintages pieces at all

It seems to be a way for some who couldn’t ever buy the watch to ruin someone else’s purchase joy.

[grapepudding]

Thanks all... can confirm my purchase joy is not ruined given the deal I'm getting lol. Will post pics when I pick it up this weekend!

[TuRo]

As this is your first Vintage Purchase enjoy it... as you'll never get it again quite as good.....as the enjoyment you feel, is inversely proportional to the no. of watches you have bought/own.

[saxo3]

100 % agreed with Swearengen (post 14).
OP, do you have dial photos taken under UV light?

[Swearengen]

Al is usually right

Originally Posted by saxo3

100 % agreed with Swearengen (post 14).
OP, do you have dial photos taken under UV light?

[grapepudding]

Saxo3, unfortunately I don't... the seller (chase from nashvillewatch) mentioned neither glow under UV so I'm inclined to believe him. I can always check/pass along photos Thursday when I pick up.

Super excited and thanks again everyone (who knew it takes a village to decide on a 1680)! I'll post a pic when I get it.

[herts9]

Originally Posted by Swearengen

Al is usually right

Heng dai!

[swish77]

Originally Posted by Swearengen

I sometimes ask myself do those guys who join the chorus of "over polished" actual own mint watches or in fact own any vintages pieces at all

I'd agree this Sub is overpolished with thin lugs (especially lower right), but that doesn't mean it's a terrible example. It all depends on how picky you are with the case. For me, I'd never consider this watch for that reason. For others, this could be a beautiful red Sub to enjoy for years to come.

And a vintage watch doesn't need to be "mint," but I prefer cases that retain their original lines and shape. (And yes, I own several, and have owned many in that category through the years.)

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by Swearengen

Al is usually right

Had to share this....my wife was looking over my shoulder a few mins back as I was reading your response - she said 'Oh is Ian McShane into your watch malarky too, as I was sitting next him at Henlow Grange recently and he didn't have a watch on'

[Swearengen]

Don't know if mine is over polished or not, but it was my first vintage for the princely sum of £5k.

@Paul Thorpe just going off topic a bit further, McShane played opposite Richard Burton in Villain, don't think he wore a watch there either

[swaini3]

Buy the best of what your budget allows. Thats what I go by. Congrats and good luck OP.

[goheel]

Is it normal for a red sub to be without the magnifying cyclop? I see one for sale on the forum with a replacement true dome crystal. How does everyone feel about crystal without the cyclop?

[zapokee]

Originally Posted by goheel

Is it normal for a red sub to be without the magnifying cyclop? I see one for sale on the forum with a replacement true dome crystal. How does everyone feel about crystal without the cyclop?

Some people prefer the no-cyclops look - these appear quite often.

It's easily reversible with a simple crystal change, so whatever floats your boat. Or ship. Or sea-faring vessel.

[goheel]

I’m total newbie when it comes to vintage watch. What’s everyone’s opinion on this particular red sub for sale on the forum?
https://www.rolexforums.com/showthre...highlight=1680