AP Japan Doesn't Allow Men Requesting Below 39mm Wathces?

[jason.zhaojc]

Hello,

Just visited AP boutique in Tokyo. Shocked to hear that they have a definition of "male" watches which are 39mm or above and they consider all smaller watches to be "female". And they don't allow male clients to wishlist 37mm or smaller watches. Btw even if you say you are requesting for your wife/girlfriend they also won't allow it! They say this is their new policy since April this year. Is that true? Has anyone experienced the same?

This is really shocking and unreasonable to me because a) I have small wrist 16cm and 37mm is perfect for me. 41mm pieces are all too big. 39mm could work but everybody knows the chance is slim. So basically they are eliminating all possibilities to get any piece that I want from AP. b) I'd almost call it "wrist discrimination" that they define "male watches" by size. Watchmaking should be about being creative, open minded and adventurous but this policy is completely the opposite! I'm sure this is not the message that AP is trying deliver as their core value.

I tried to email them (both SA and regional office) to confirm such weird policy but got no reply after 3 weeks. Such behaviour is quite unprofessional and disrespectful as well. Really disappointed.

[SoylentGreenChi]

Wow. This seems wrongheaded on so many levels, but maybe I am missing something. AP is my favorite brand and I have a fabulous relationship with my boutique, but with a 6.5 wrist, the 37mm RO is the only reference in the entire current catalog I can wear. With the policy you describe, AP would have literally nothing to offer clients like me/us. C’est la vie.

At this point, I’d buy a used 15450 (terrific reference, and used prices are reasonable) or pursue another brand. Rolex and Cartier still do fabulous stuff in mid-sized cases. Higher up the horology chain, I think Moser just released a smaller case Pioneer, which could be worth a look.

[Ichiran]

Have you asked for the 38mm ROC? Similar to you I have smaller wrist and 41mm RO are out for me, while 39mm RO are impossible for me to get. 38mm is a good size which I'm able to get from them.

[deuxani]

You could even call it sexism, really weird policy. Good that you contacted the regional office, you might even want to try the head office too. But it somehow doesn't really surprise me as AP's are marketed as big in your face watches (41mm shiny with mega wrist presence Royal Oaks, big bold and thick Offshores and Concepts, big open dials on the Codes, etc). Many brands have shifted to "everything is unisex" and AP seems to be doubling down on a hard line between men and women (many of their watches below 39mm have gem set bezels and dials and some can only be had in those configs, just look at the new 37mm Offshores). Strange tactics.

Which boutique was this by the way? The one in Ginza was really friendly in my experience.

[Ashj52]

I think this is unusual/frustrating, understand your annoyance however at least they are being honest with you regarding their policy? Otherwise they could take your request and never actually allocate your desired model.

[VogelPhoenix]

Agree or disagree with this policy, it is not "unreasonable" from their POV. They have a limited supply of smaller RO/ROC, and they are making a big push to increase the fraction of female customers. So instead of wasting their finite number of small watches on a small(ish)fraction of their male clientele, they use it to conquer what they see as the biggest growth market. Not strange at all, although clearly annoying for those on the wrong side of the dividing line.

[jason.zhaojc]

Originally Posted by SoylentGreenChi

Wow. This seems wrongheaded on so many levels, but maybe I am missing something. AP is my favorite brand and I have a fabulous relationship with my boutique, but with a 6.5 wrist, the 37mm RO is the only reference in the entire current catalog I can wear. With the policy you describe, AP would have literally nothing to offer clients like me/us. C’est la vie.

At this point, I’d buy a used 15450 (terrific reference, and used prices are reasonable) or pursue another brand. Rolex and Cartier still do fabulous stuff in mid-sized cases. Higher up the horology chain, I think Moser just released a smaller case Pioneer, which could be worth a look.

I know! But my point is (a) whether that's true or misinterpretation of headquarter policy (since they claimed so) or Japan only policy (but they insisted it's global policy) (b) this is apparently wrong as this basically leaves me no possibiilty to get anything I want. Watchmaking should be about creativity and open-mindedness but they are delivering totally opposite message. Not sure if that's what AP wants as their brand image. Thanks a lot for your advice I do collect other brands like Patek, Lange as well but such move by AP really disappointed me.

[jason.zhaojc]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Have you asked for the 38mm ROC? Similar to you I have smaller wrist and 41mm RO are out for me, while 39mm RO are impossible for me to get. 38mm is a good size which I'm able to get from them.

Unfortunately 38mm is also "not allowed" since everything below 39mm is considered "female"! That's literally what they told me.

[jason.zhaojc]

Originally Posted by deuxani

You could even call it sexism, really weird policy. Good that you contacted the regional office, you might even want to try the head office too. But it somehow doesn't really surprise me as AP's are marketed as big in your face watches (41mm shiny with mega wrist presence Royal Oaks, big bold and thick Offshores and Concepts, big open dials on the Codes, etc). Many brands have shifted to "everything is unisex" and AP seems to be doubling down on a hard line between men and women (many of their watches below 39mm have gem set bezels and dials and some can only be had in those configs, just look at the new 37mm Offshores). Strange tactics.

Which boutique was this by the way? The one in Ginza was really friendly in my experience.

Yes I'm indeed contacting the regional office and also considering the head office too. It was actually Ginza boutique. To be clear, the SA was very nice and friendly, he seemed frustrated by the policy too so it will be unfair to blame him personally. But hearing such policy really blew me away.

[jason.zhaojc]

Originally Posted by VogelPhoenix

Agree or disagree with this policy, it is not "unreasonable" from their POV. They have a limited supply of smaller RO/ROC, and they are making a big push to increase the fraction of female customers. So instead of wasting their finite number of small watches on a small(ish)fraction of their male clientele, they use it to conquer what they see as the biggest growth market. Not strange at all, although clearly annoying for those on the wrong side of the dividing line.

Understand your point. But such "business optimization" mindset would be representative of brand core value as well, which you may or may not appreciate.

One analogy would be, if I were to run a buffet restaurant and only allow diners whose weight is less than 75kg, does that optimize my profit? Maybe. But is that right? Maybe not.

[jason.zhaojc]

Originally Posted by Ashj52

I think this is unusual/frustrating, understand your annoyance however at least they are being honest with you regarding their policy? Otherwise they could take your request and never actually allocate your desired model.

That is true and that's why I said thank you when they confirmed the policy with me, although I would appreciate it more if they can join me in the thinking exercise about whether this is right or wrong. It just sounds wrong that over the whole country, from ground level SA to senior management, there's not enough critical thinking and pushback to make it right.

[pav333hp]

Originally Posted by VogelPhoenix

Agree or disagree with this policy, it is not "unreasonable" from their POV. They have a limited supply of smaller RO/ROC, and they are making a big push to increase the fraction of female customers. So instead of wasting their finite number of small watches on a small(ish)fraction of their male clientele, they use it to conquer what they see as the biggest growth market. Not strange at all, although clearly annoying for those on the wrong side of the dividing line.

Yep, this is definitely accurate that AP is trying to bring more female clients to the brand, which may explain this policy (if it is indeed true). Not arguing or offering an opinion whether this is good / bad policy, but confirming that AP is focused on female clients.

[In-N-Out]

The fact they have a new female CEO, and the fact that Patek/Rolex/VC all have more ladies options than AP makes it logical that AP would want to cater towards women.

[SoylentGreenChi]

OP - just go buy one of the many 15450s on the gray market. There’s no sense in building a relationship since you’re not looking to build a larger AP collection down the line, and the Royal Oak is fantastic and it sounds like 37mm is perfect for you.

[jason.zhaojc]

Originally Posted by In-N-Out

The fact they have a new female CEO, and the fact that Patek/Rolex/VC all have more ladies options than AP makes it logical that AP would want to cater towards women.

And I'd call it reverse sexism.

[jason.zhaojc]

Originally Posted by SoylentGreenChi

OP - just go buy one of the many 15450s on the gray market. There’s no sense in building a relationship since you’re not looking to build a larger AP collection down the line, and the Royal Oak is fantastic and it sounds like 37mm is perfect for you.

But I do, as I'd like some 37mm pieces and eventually some 39mm pieces as well.

[John Doyle]

Not a bad thing as I believe any piece under 39-38mm is for women. It always has been with AP until the increase in demand. Men turned to smaller sizes and are now trying to convince themselves and everyone else that it's OK. Well no it's not. all ROs apart from the 15202 / 16202 is supposed to wear big.

[Henrimontgomery]

Would you rather they be honest as such, or register your interest, never to be filled?

While I’m not happy with this practice, at least they are more transparent than other brands.

Now the solution is simple, have your SO register herself.

[deuxani]

Originally Posted by jason.zhaojc

Yes I'm indeed contacting the regional office and also considering the head office too. It was actually Ginza boutique. To be clear, the SA was very nice and friendly, he seemed frustrated by the policy too so it will be unfair to blame him personally. But hearing such policy really blew me away.

Aaah yeah, sadly the SA’s probably can’t do much about it it seems. It’s extra strange because when generalizing, the average male wrist size in Japan is probably smaller than in Europe, so the demand for sub 39mm watches would be higher. On the one hand it makes sense to add this policy but on the other hand it would mean having to buy very oversized watches. They could actually lose many male customers this way (not that they have a shortage of customers though, so that might also be a reason).

Originally Posted by John Doyle

Not a bad thing as I believe any piece under 39-38mm is for women. It always has been with AP until the increase in demand. Men turned to smaller sizes and are now trying to convince themselves and everyone else that it's OK. Well no it's not. all ROs apart from the 15202 / 16202 is supposed to wear big.

This is only their new approach. Every threehander before the 15400 was 39mm or smaller (15300, 14790, 4100, etc) and were worn by men. Men always wore smaller sizes (34-36mm), then it went to big and bigger and now it’s going back to smaller. That’s how trends go, just AP chooses to ignore it.

[jason.zhaojc]

Originally Posted by John Doyle

Not a bad thing as I believe any piece under 39-38mm is for women. It always has been with AP until the increase in demand. Men turned to smaller sizes and are now trying to convince themselves and everyone else that it's OK. Well no it's not. all ROs apart from the 15202 / 16202 is supposed to wear big.

Well I guess I'll have to agree to disagree. With all due respect, your statement almost has the same mindset as "I believe no man should wear pink" or "I believe man should only marry woman". And I thought that mentality exists only in North Korea.

[jason.zhaojc]

Originally Posted by Henrimontgomery

Would you rather they be honest as such, or register your interest, never to be filled?

While I’m not happy with this practice, at least they are more transparent than other brands.

Now the solution is simple, have your SO register herself.

Well maybe you are used to be at the mercy of the brand and let them do whatever they want to us customers. But I'd like to use this forum to discuss if such policy is right or not, and I thought we do at least have the right to do so. In fact I believe we should as well. But if everyone is ignoring such unreasonable "policies", I cannot imaging what watch collection would look like in the future.

[Henrimontgomery]

Originally Posted by jason.zhaojc

Well maybe you are used to be at the mercy of the brand and let them do whatever they want to us customers. But I'd like to use this forum to discuss if such policy is right or not, and I thought we do at least have the right to do so. In fact I believe we should as well. But if everyone is ignoring such unreasonable "policies", I cannot imaging what watch collection would look like in the future.

Not saying I’m happy with this policy, but I am not sure I would do differently if I was in their position. AP females buyers are a small fraction of their sales, and I can see why you would try to change that.

[VogelPhoenix]

Originally Posted by jason.zhaojc

Well maybe you are used to be at the mercy of the brand and let them do whatever they want to us customers. But I'd like to use this forum to discuss if such policy is right or not, and I thought we do at least have the right to do so. In fact I believe we should as well. But if everyone is ignoring such unreasonable "policies", I cannot imaging what watch collection would look like in the future.

AP Japan are reserving the sub-39mm watches for female customers who they believe will have more value for the brand than potential male clients who are only interested in three specific, high demand models, i.e. 37mm RO, 38MM ROC and Jumbo. Doesn't get more reasonable than that.

[SoylentGreenChi]

Originally Posted by VogelPhoenix

AP Japan are reserving the sub-39mm watches for female customers who they believe will have more value for the brand than potential male clients who are only interested in three specific, high demand models, i.e. 37mm RO, 38MM ROC and Jumbo. Doesn't get more reasonable than that.

Originally Posted by VogelPhoenix

AP Japan are reserving the sub-39mm watches for female customers who they believe will have more value for the brand than potential male clients who are only interested in three specific, high demand models, i.e. 37mm RO, 38MM ROC and Jumbo. Doesn't get more reasonable than that.

Yup, appears that’s their stated business decision, which is why I suggest the OP just buy a 15450 on the gray market and move on.

Then again, the OP came here not to talk about what he should do tactically, but rather to engage in a forum discussion about APs strategic decision and its merits and demerits. Here are some thoughts on this larger issue:

As a watch enthusiast who appreciates high horology, I think the business decision to break watch references into men/women lines is anachronistic, shortsighted, and out-of-touch. I know many women collectors who share this view, women who emphatically DO NOT desire watches with diamonds, quartz movements, and small case sizes marketed ‘for them’ - and who roll their eyes in exasperation when they get the call from sales associates offering ‘ladies’ ROs and ‘ladies’ Nautiluses, which are so often undersized and bejeweled. Then again, I’m coming from the community of enthusiasts, which is niche and perhaps does not offer AP the opportunities it seeks for market growth.

Here are the dangers I see for APs market positioning strategy, call it the Hublot risk.

Undoubtedly part of AP’s market appeal is their legacy as a « holy trinity » brand. But as AP becomes a brand that offers 1) an oversized line of ‘mens’ watches for folks looking for a higher end version of a Rolex GMT or Panerai (ie. Offhshores) and 2) a line of jewelry ‘for women’ and 3) deprioritizes engagement with the watch enthusiast community (ie. being satisfied rolling out the occasional grande sonnerie to let the enthusiasts know ‘AP’s still got it’), at some point AP will use up whatever « holy trinity » legacy they still enjoy, and compete in the marketplace as another Hublot and/or glorified Panerai. Arguably, this time has already come.

Whether this all makes sound business sense for AP, who’s to say? I will say that 1) I am happy to have a RO 15450 that fits my wrist perfectly 2) I cheer when AP rolls out references that demonstrate their high horology chops and 3) I hope that AP continues to make watches in the 37/38 mm space that all can enjoy. Like I said, AP remains my favorite brand, largely based on the extraordinary legacy so well captured in this book: https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/au...d-wristwatches

Welcome other thoughts.

[jason.zhaojc]

Originally Posted by SoylentGreenChi

Yup, that’s their stated business decision, which is why I suggest the OP just buy a 15450 on the gray market and move on.

Then again, the OP came here not to talk about what he should do tactically, but rather to engage in a forum discussion about APs strategic decision and its merits and demerits. Here are some thoughts on this larger issue:

As a watch enthusiast who appreciates high horology, I think the business decision to break watch references into men/women lines is anachronistic, shortsighted, and out-of-touch. I know many women collectors who share this view, women who emphatically DO NOT desire watches with diamonds, quartz movements, and small case sizes marketed ‘for them’ - and who roll their eyes in exasperation when they get the call from sales associates offering ‘ladies’ ROs and ‘ladies’ Nautiluses, which are so often undersized and bejeweled. Then again, I’m coming from the community of enthusiasts, which is niche and perhaps does not offer AP the opportunities it seeks for market growth.

Here are the dangers I see for APs market positioning strategy, call it the Hublot risk.

Undoubtedly part of AP’s market appeal is their legacy as a « holy trinity » brand. But as AP becomes a brand that offers 1) an oversized line of ‘mens’ watches for folks looking for a higher end version of a Rolex GMT or Panerai (ie. Offhshores) and 2) a line of jewelry ‘for women’ and 3) deprioritizes engagement with the watch enthusiast community (ie. being satisfied rolling out the occasional grande sonnerie to let the enthusiasts know ‘AP’s still got it’), at some point AP will use up whatever « holy trinity » legacy they still enjoy, and compete in the marketplace as another Hublot and/or glorified Panerai. Arguably, this time has already come.

Whether this all makes sound business sense for AP, who’s to say? I will say that 1) I am happy to have a RO 15450 that fits my wrist perfectly 2) I cheer when AP rolls out references that demonstrate their high horology chops and 3) I hope that AP continues to make watches in the 37/38 mm space that all can enjoy. Like I said, AP remains my favorite brand.

Welcome other thoughts.

Well said!! Totally agreed and that's exactly my purpose of opening this thread. The moment I sent the email to the boutique and regional management questioning their policy, I already knew that my chance of getting any allocation is automatically eliminated, so I'm definitely not asking for tactical suggestions. But I went ahead to purpue what I believed was right. Hopeully what I'm "fighting for" will benefit some alike collectors, although ironically my AP journey probably already ends here without getting started.

[VogelPhoenix]

Originally Posted by SoylentGreenChi

Undoubtedly part of AP’s market appeal is their legacy as a « holy trinity » brand. But as AP becomes a brand that offers 1) an oversized line of ‘mens’ watches for folks looking for a higher end version of a Rolex GMT or Panerai (ie. Offhshores) and 2) a line of jewelry ‘for women’ and 3) deprioritizes engagement with the watch enthusiast community (ie. being satisfied rolling out the occasional grande sonnerie to let the enthusiasts know ‘AP’s still got it’), at some point AP will use up whatever « holy trinity » legacy they still enjoy, and compete in the marketplace as another Hublot and/or glorified Panerai. Arguably, this time has already come.

First, it seems that this is mostly an AP Japan decision, not from the mothership, as we have seen many sub-39mm watches go to male customers elsewhere. Or maybe it's all a red herring.

I didn't quite catch what you actually want AP to do, to avoid becoming a Hublot/Panerai hybrid? In the last years they have introduced a new flyback chrono movement, a new ultra thin movement for the Jumbo, the ultra-thin QP, the 37mm RD#3 QP, the RD#4 Ultra Complication, the Grande Sonneries, the Starwheel, overhauled the 37mm and 41mm ROs, overhauled the 38 and 41mm ROCs and introduced the 43mm ROOs, in addition to new openworked movements, expanding their ceramic offerings and adding the Concept split second GMT chrono, plus a bunch of other stuff I forgot. Add the 50th hoopla, and one could argue they stretched themselves too thin already, as shown e.g. by the chrono movement difficulties (now hopefully fixed). Seems more ambitious to me than VC and PPs agenda?

[SoylentGreenChi]

Originally Posted by VogelPhoenix

First, it seems that this is mostly an AP Japan decision, not from the mothership, as we have seen many sub-39mm watches go to male customers elsewhere. Or maybe it's all a red herring.

I didn't quite catch what you actually want AP to do, to avoid becoming a Hublot/Panerai hybrid? In the last years they have introduced a new flyback chrono movement, a new ultra thin movement for the Jumbo, the ultra-thin QP, the 37mm RD#3 QP, the RD#4 Ultra Complication, the Grande Sonneries, the Starwheel, overhauled the 37mm and 41mm ROs, overhauled the 38 and 41mm ROCs and introduced the 43mm ROOs, in addition to new openworked movements, expanding their ceramic offerings and adding the Concept split second GMT chrono, plus a bunch of other stuff I forgot. Add the 50th hoopla, and one could argue they stretched themselves too thin already, as shown e.g. by the chrono movement difficulties (now hopefully fixed). Seems more ambitious to me than VC and PPs agenda?

I don’t want AP to do anything in particular. I am a fan of the brand, particularly its historical legacy, and want them to be successful long term. Their own management has both more expertise and certainly accountability for stewarding the brand, and I’m just a hobbyist wasting time on a summer vacation day. :)

Noting here that Hublot, too, has made numerous and quite advanced horological contributions in the past few years (as has Richard Mille). Nonetheless, fair or unfair (I think it largely unfair), Hublot’s market position, and Richard Mille’s to perhaps a lesser extent, is a vexed one within the community of enthusiasts. My guess is that this is on account of aesthetic choices, celebrity-based marketing, and a clash of sensibilities between the stealth wealth set and folks who want more showy pieces. To the extent that AP only has flashy pieces in the lineup (unlike PP, Vacheron, and Lange) and an agressive celebrity-based marketing strategy, all compounded perhaps by a ‘small bejeweled pieces for the ladies, and Hummer-like oversized pieces for the men’ approach, they align with Hublot and Richard Mille. That’s descriptive not evaluative.

In my dream world AP would still have a line of Calatrava-like dress pieces, because no one ever did it better than AP. But I’m a dinosaur.

[JettyOne]

Originally Posted by jason.zhaojc

One analogy would be, if I were to run a buffet restaurant and only allow diners whose weight is less than 75kg, does that optimize my profit? Maybe. But is that right? Maybe not.

I get the frustration. AP is aggressive in expanding the women’s base. I don’t know how successful they are in this push.

To your analogy: if your buffet restaurant isn’t able to reach its goal for years, even decades, you might want to shift your business strategy to meet those goals.

I agree with you here, it’s an icky policy to enforce. My guess is a large majority of 37 and 38mm went to male customers, I’d be interested in one, as well. I’m glad they make this policy transparent and not keeping it behind closed door. I’d be pissed if I’m on the 18th months waiting for a 38mm and zero traction.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[VogelPhoenix]

Originally Posted by SoylentGreenChi

I don’t want AP to do anything in particular. I am a fan of the brand, particularly its historical legacy, and want them to be successful long term. Their own management has both more expertise and certainly accountability for stewarding the brand, and I’m just a hobbyist wasting time on a summer vacation day. :)

Noting here that Hublot, too, has made numerous and quite advanced horological contributions in the past few years (as has Richard Mille). Nonetheless, fair or unfair (I think it largely unfair), Hublot’s market position, and Richard Mille’s to perhaps a lesser extent, is a vexed one within the community of enthusiasts. My guess is that this is on account of aesthetic choices, celebrity-based marketing, and a clash of sensibilities between the stealth wealth set and folks who want more showy pieces. To the extent that AP only has flashy pieces in the lineup (unlike PP, Vacheron, and Lange) and an agressive celebrity-based marketing strategy, all compounded perhaps by a ‘small bejeweled pieces for the ladies, and Hummer-like oversized pieces for the men’ approach, they align with Hublot and Richard Mille. That’s descriptive not evaluative.

In my dream world AP would still have a line of Calatrava-like dress pieces, because no one ever did it better than AP. But I’m a dinosaur.

Appreciate your thoughts. It will certainly be an interesting ride in the next years. And I do feel for Hublot a bit - they do quite a few interesting things, but just can't get no respect in certain circles.

[Greenp]

Is the reverse true, women can’t buy larger than 39mm?