Need advice on buying my first 1665

[kensklo]

Hi all, I have come across a Sea Dweller 1665 at a local vintage Rolex store, and would like to get some comments in general about this reference as well as this specific piece I found.

I am relatively new to vintage Rolex but I do own a 1675 GMT with Fuchsia bezel in relatively pristine condition which I love. I am looking to add to my collection if and when I can find something I like. One of the major reasons why this 1665 is appealing to me is that the shop told me this watch was never polished, and to my untrained bare eyes the watch seems to be in excellent condition considering its age. The rail dial, hands and bezel all look to be in very good condition as well. I wish it came with box and papers but then we don't live in a perfect world, do we?

I am not knowledgeable enough to confirm all parts are original or ate least from the same period, but I am sure if I decide to buy this watch then I will do my homework and double check the bracelet, clasp etc. For the time being, I would appreciate any comments on what you think of this watch based on the limited pictures I have posted here.

Finally, as a newbie who is interested in only getting one vintage Sea Dweller, would this rail dial one be a good choice? Or should I hunt for a Double Red instead? All DRSD seems to be at least double the price of other 1665's (under the same condition) and as this rail dial is also quite rare, would this be considered a better investment in the long-term? To me, the condition of a watch is of the highest priority.

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[Dan S]

Can you please post photos from between the lugs and from other angles. Also, photos of the dial, with the hands moved so that they don't obscure the printing. In general, I don't understand why your photos make the printing look so sloppy and thick, are they compression artifacts?

[Haywood_Milton]

[ Edited : I didn't like the dial at first, but have now changed my mind - see below ]

What store is selling it and how are THEY describing it ?

Would love to see the numbers between the lugs.

Are those lugs chunky monkeys ?



Hoping we see more.

[TuRo]

Check the dial forensically against these sir on the MK2 Rail Version.

The text/spacings initially look ok for MK2 to me, but Haywood and Dan request for serial and model be great....also outside and inside of caseback if poss. Also few other angles of lugs and crown guards please.

http://www.drsd.com/watch-info/white...eadweller.html

Generally MK2 Rail Dial 1665 command a max of £2-3k premium in UK (ceteris paribus).... but weirdly not on a rail dial 1655 - I think only because collectors don't talk about rail dial 1655's.

Ref the Red to white relationship of both 1680 and 1665. I've plotted it since 2016* (most common version, loose watch, av. condition)

2016 white 1680 £5,000 Red £12,500
2016 white 1665 £11,700 D/Red £23,000

2022** white 1680 £11,000 Red £20,000
2022** white 1665 £18,800 D/Red £33,000

So my conclusion is that the Red/D-Red had been the darlings for decades until prices soared 2018-22 and the whites became more popular and have caught up a bit and I suspect perhaps peaked.

I suspect Reds will surge before whites next time markets go up.

The same dynamics on 37.5 mm Daytonas too (non-exotic) - where 40mm Zeniths have caught up massively v the manual winds (that have risen much at all in last 4 yrs) from 2019-22, and the manuals eg 6263/65 etc will surge before 40mm when mkt picks up again.

* eBay/C24/forums (sold - not advertised price) source.
** Peak selling prices used c 5/2022.

[Haywood_Milton]

Originally Posted by TuRo

Check the dial forensically against these sir on the MK2 Rail Version.

The text/spacings initially look ok for MK2 to me, but Haywood and Dan request for serial and model be great....also outside and inside of caseback if poss.

http://www.drsd.com/watch-info/white...eadweller.html

Yes, my view of the dial changes - I'd forgotten that detail at the bottom of the rail version (my two are both Comex 600m versions, which is slightly different in key ways apart from the obvious !). Could well be correct.

The lugs still worry me. Compare those shown on that Rolex main agent sales aid that I posted and the ones on the DRSD example.

Let's see those case and model numbers.....

[kensklo]

I'll see if I can request more pictures of the watch from the shop, with different angles and on lugs, crown guards, case/model numbers, etc.

It's actually rather interesting to see that the whites have relatively caught up with the reds in recent years. I just felt that the rail version is quite unique among the whites and if it's not priced exceptionally high compared with other versions, then this could be a good buy. I am however not in a hurry as the market has corrected quite a bit and there doesn't seem to be any momentum for a rebound any time soon.

Also, I'm not sure if we are allowed to talk about prices here on this forum, are we?

[TuRo]

Good stuff. Look forward to seeing them.

Blatantly using the forum as a mere valuation service is the only frowned upon aspect I'd say.

[1665fan]

Real deal rail dial…..check the serial make sure it’s the correct time frame

[kensklo]

Hi, I just did some preliminary search on auction prices on rail dial 1665, and found one that was sold just 2 months ago at Phillips with box and papers. The condition may not be as good as the one I'm looking at, but then the final price was significantly less than the current asking price by my local shop. I think from a valuation perspective the presence of box and papers would balance out the superior condition, and with the difference in price, I'd rather pass on this one.

I am hoping the correction on auction prices will soon be reflected on the local retail level. It's probably wise to sit and wait for now, and hopefully there will be better deals out there in the near future.

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[Dan S]

Originally Posted by kensklo

I am hoping the correction on auction prices will soon be reflected on the local retail level.

This is probably wishful thinking. The pricing is totally different in these scenarios. In fact, dealers and retailers often buy watches at auction, clean them up, and sell them. There will always be a significant differential.

Auction purchases are made with relatively little information and they are stressful in-the-moment as-is sales. They are risky, which results in lower prices. Many consignors dump watches with issues into auctions. I try to screen auction lots carefully. But even so, half the watches I buy in auctions have undisclosed issues that I need to address with time, effort, and money, and I bid with that understanding. But if you want a deal, you have to accept the risk and bid. Sometimes you get lucky, and the more knowledge you have, the more often you get lucky.

On the other hand, if you want the things that come along with a retail sale, you will have to pay more. You have opportunities to check out the watch in detail, you can take your time making a decision, and the seller stands behind the watch after the sale. A dealer or store is always going to ask a high price. If you like the watch, negotiate as hard as you can, and then decide if it's worth it.

Price trends will gradually adjust, but a local retailer is probably the last place you will see a major correction in asking prices. IMO, you are more likely to see prices correcting in collector-to-collector sales or high volume online dealer prices.

[kensklo]

Thank you Dan for your insightful comments. I have bought and sold many watches at auctions over the last 20 years and fortunately my experience has so far been quite pleasant.

On the other hand, I have never bought any vintage watches at established local retailers so the experience to me is kind of reverse. Buying vintage at auctions, I would always get detailed pics of everything, and then talk to all the specialists available to gain an as objective as possible opinion. At the local shops, maybe because I am just a walk-in customer, I feel like I would be too demanding to ask for pics and request the watch to be taken apart for further examination.

But understanding how local retailers operate in general is a good thing to know. There is so much to learn here, and it's great fun to interact with all you knowledgeable and seasoned Rolex collectors.

[Dan S]

That's good to know, based on your initial post, I didn't realize that you were such an experienced collector. Clearly you know what you're doing.

[996marty]

Originally Posted by Dan S

This is probably wishful thinking. The pricing is totally different in these scenarios. In fact, dealers and retailers often buy watches at auction, clean them up, and sell them. There will always be a significant differential.

Auction purchases are made with relatively little information and they are stressful in-the-moment as-is sales. They are risky, which results in lower prices. Many consignors dump watches with issues into auctions. I try to screen auction lots carefully. But even so, half the watches I buy in auctions have undisclosed issues that I need to address with time, effort, and money, and I bid with that understanding. But if you want a deal, you have to accept the risk and bid. Sometimes you get lucky, and the more knowledge you have, the more often you get lucky.

On the other hand, if you want the things that come along with a retail sale, you will have to pay more. You have opportunities to check out the watch in detail, you can take your time making a decision, and the seller stands behind the watch after the sale. A dealer or store is always going to ask a high price. If you like the watch, negotiate as hard as you can, and then decide if it's worth it.

Price trends will gradually adjust, but a local retailer is probably the last place you will see a major correction in asking prices. IMO, you are more likely to see prices correcting in collector-to-collector sales or high volume online dealer prices.

Couldn’t agree more a spot on summary

[kensklo]

Originally Posted by Dan S

That's good to know, based on your initial post, I didn't realize that you were such an experienced collector. Clearly you know what you're doing.

I have been collecting watches for over 20 years, but am truly a newbie when it comes to vintage Rolex. The only one I bought was a GMT through Christie's back in 2020. According to Christie's description, it was "among the most beautiful and untouched examples of the rare "Fuchsia" bezel version to appear at auction in recent years." I just trusted the specialists then and bought it without seeing the watch at all.

I am very happy with the purchase as the watch was "as described". Unfortunately, I probably went over my head through the bidding process, and paid too much. But that's another story for another day...

I just hung up after talking to two different specialists at Christie's over the phone now, and am learning more and more about the vintage Rolex market and how the local dealers operate here in Hong Kong. Once again I am truly grateful for everyone's constructive inputs on this forum. There is no doubt that I will come back for more feedbacks when I find the 1665 that I really like.

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by 996marty

Couldn’t agree more a spot on summary

Think OP has been fortunate if everything been 100%. My experience also as per yours and Dans. Namely, watches often have issues or aren't quite right and reflected in auction price in UK always below 2/3 of retail - plus fees.

The Phillips watch would have been circa $22-24,000 with 15-20% hammer fees and I can think of 5 dealers in UK that would have put it up at $32,000 or £27,500 if full set punched papers. (Punched would have added about £5 - 6k, and whatever we think of the intrinsic value of them.... people pay a lot for them ).

[kensklo]

Originally Posted by TuRo

Think OP has been fortunate if everything been 100%. My experience also as per yours and Dans. Namely, watches often have issues or aren't quite right and reflected in auction price in UK always below 2/3 of retail - plus fees.

The Phillips watch would have been circa $22-24,000 with 15-20% hammer fees and I can think of 5 dealers in UK that would have put it up at $32,000 or £27,500 if full set punched papers. (Punched would have added about £5 - 6k, and whatever we think of the intrinsic value of them.... people pay a lot for them ).

I suppose I have been the lucky one then. I have bought and sold quite a lot of watches through auctions over the years. But most of them have been modern watches, except for my Rolex GMT 1675 and a Patek 2497. Both of these have been perfect "as described" and I have not had any issues with either of them.

In terms of auction prices, what you find on the websites the price is already all inclusive. For this particular piece at Phillips, the hammered price was $14,000, and with 27% commissions it makes the total $17,780.

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by kensklo

I suppose I have been the lucky one then. I have bought and sold quite a lot of watches through auctions over the years. But most of them have been modern watches, except for my Rolex GMT 1675 and a Patek 2497. Both of these have been perfect "as described" and I have not had any issues with either of them.

In terms of auction prices, what you find on the websites the price is already all inclusive. For this particular piece at Phillips, the hammered price was $14,000, and with 27% commissions it makes the total $17,780.

My mistake thought it was pre-hammer. That was VERY cheap then sir, blimey....but I think adds fuel to the 2/3 rule -although this is more like 1/2 - as it will be up at a dealers at $30k plus I'm sure !

[kensklo]

Originally Posted by TuRo

My mistake thought it was pre-hammer. That was VERY cheap then sir, blimey....but I think adds fuel to the 2/3 rule -although this is more like 1/2 - as it will be up at a dealers at $30k plus I'm sure !

Yes I was shocked when I compared the street prices (found here in HK at local retail shops) and to what I was able to find online the latest auction prices! I guess I am lucky as I live in HK where there is no sales tax, but I believe in your case you will have to add back the VAT.

[watchfreak207]

Nice mk2 rail dial! the serial number i think should be between 5.7-6m.
I have a mk3 and my serial is 6.15m. So ask for the serial number range as a check.

[kensklo]

Originally Posted by watchfreak207

Nice mk2 rail dial! the serial number i think should be between 5.7-6m.
I have a mk3 and my serial is 6.15m. So ask for the serial number range as a check.

After comparing prices, I have decided to hunt for my one-and-only 1665 at auctions. The price discrepancy is far too high for me to buy it at local shops.

[watchfreak207]

Mk2 rail dials tend to have a higher premium. I found 2 from a HK dealer at HKD213-283k.

[TuRo]

Understood.

I know you are well versed in Auction, but I'm seeing as a rule of thumb the more common pieces go for a song eg say a 14060, 16710 etc .. as there are so many about and only a small no. bidding.

As a seller it's only worth selling if a rare high prrofile watch eg JCKilly, Early Orig 50s rare dial sub, early Milgauss Exotic Newmann etc etc can get the 'peacocks' bidding against each other in a champagne fuelled frenzy.

The 1665 rail dial clearly isn't in that zone and tbh neither would say a MK4 DRSD.... so as a seller you'd be bonkers to put it into auction (unless you knew something was off) and as a buyer of such a piece, I suspect you could get a good snaffle on such a watch if you put the hard yards research in.

I know you know a chunk, having bought a few, but a word of caution if I may - in my experience it's usually the case, caseback, bezel, calibre and handset that are hooky from my early days of buying a few at auction. Dials are usually right as they get forensically looked at. Many of the smaller and larger Auction houses are not versed in round v flat handsets (50-60s subs) and the various legit engravings I've found.

As example of peril - one mid-case of a 1680 I bought cheaply at auction in 1998 was so good it took 2 yrs to identify it as snide/hooky case... even after 5 experts had looked at engravings !!

[kensklo]

Originally Posted by TuRo

Understood.

I know you are well versed in Auction, but I'm seeing as a rule of thumb the more common pieces go for a song eg say a 14060, 16710 etc .. as there are so many about and only a small no. bidding.

As a seller it's only worth selling if a rare high prrofile watch eg JCKilly, Early Orig 50s rare dial sub, early Milgauss Exotic Newmann etc etc - the 1665 rail dial clearly isn't in that zone and tbh neither would say a MK4 DRSD.... so as a seller you'd be bonkers to put it into auction (unless you knew something was off) and as a buyer of such a piece, I suspect you could get a good snaffle on such a watch if you put the hard yards research in.

I know you know a chunk having bought a few. But a word of caution if I may - in my experience it's usually the case, caseback, bezel and handset that are hooky from my early days of buying a few at auction. Dials are usually right as they get forensically looked at.

One mid-case 1680 I bought in 1998 was so good it took 2 yrs to identify it as snide/hooky case... even after 5 experts looked at engravings !!

I guess you're right that vintage Rolex is an entirely different league which requires much deeper knowledge. As I said before I am a newbie when it comes to vintage Rolex and here I am trying to learn as much as I can so that I won't be making stupid mistakes. Based on my findings it also doesn't make much sense for vintage Rolex owners to sell at auctions unless something is wrong with the watch.

I would be grateful if you're willing to share your story on the 1680 you bought back in '98. What took you 2 years and more than 5 experts to figure out something was wrong?

[kensklo]

Originally Posted by watchfreak207

Mk2 rail dials tend to have a higher premium. I found 2 from a HK dealer at HKD213-283k.

I think prices have already come down quite a bit as I found in local retail shops, but the current asking prices are still way more expensive than what I could find at auctions.

[TuRo]

Not much of a story...just the engravings were so good (for the time) they fooled everyone... even an RSC who had serviced it.

The watch was 'only' circa £1600 back then, and forging was somewhat unheard of, so I suspect that helped its undetected path through the community. The case was 100% fake though.

There was no VRF or TRF either then, just books to check against.

Good luck with the purchase.

[kensklo]

Originally Posted by TuRo

Not much of a story...just the engravings were so good (for the time) they fooled everyone... even an RSC who had serviced it.

The watch was 'only' circa £1600 back then, and forging was somewhat unheard of, so I suspect that helped its undetected path through the community. The case was 100% fake though.

There was no VRF or TRF either then just books to check against.

Good luck with the purchase.

Wow, that's just crazy!

[kensklo]

After doing a bit more research I am now more inclined to buy a DRSD with either mk 1 or mk 2 dial. From what I found it seems like mk 1 (always come with the Patent Pending caseback) is rarer than mk 2. However, some of the mk 2 dials would turn tropical and could become quite captivating.

I am curious to know the approximate production numbers of these two versions. Are there a lot more mk 2 (both black and chocolate dials) out there compared to mk 1? Also would a Comex 1665 be more desirable than both of these in general?

[TuRo]

No idea on exact numbers but this might help - the earlier versions the more expensive of course.

Btw Mike Wood, Haywood etc etc are your chaps ref Comex. Ps this is profitable 'auction' territory for a seller, as fearsomely expensive and they'll be a total bun-fight over a really good one with Comex dive provenance etc (and is not for unwary, pecuniarily modest or faint hearted btw, ....Oh and the buyer won't get a bargain....in fact these types of sale result in usually paying over mkt c 20-30% and buyer gets buried in the watch until next auction in a decades time :-/).

https://www.drsd.com/watch-info/doub...ers-guide.html

[zapokee]

I'd go for a Double Red if you can afford it. They're only going up in price. They'll be in Paul Newman territory in a few years.

[kensklo]

Thanks Paul. This is very helpful.