5513 - Papers with No Serial Number

[bp682]

I am relatively new to vintage watches and I have been researching non stop and reading all the threads.

I came across a late 60s 5513 complete with box and papers. Watch looks great and authentic as well as the box and papers. The papers state the model number, but nothing on the papers state the serial number. Based on some research that seems to no be uncommon for that time frame.

I guess my question is, would be be concerned? Do papers without the serial number demand the same premium of those with?

Anything else I should be worried about?

Thank you in advance from a newbie just drinking out of a fire hose.

[Dan S]

Those papers have no value. Common sense should tell you that they can’t be connected to the watch. Anyone can buy blank papers on the internet.

I would look extra close at the watch in a situation like this.

[springer]

Originally Posted by Dan S

Those papers have no value. Common sense should tell you that they can’t be connected to the watch. Anyone can buy blank papers on the internet.

I would look extra close at the watch in a situation like this.

In the past, I've seen vintage watches come with blank warranty or partially completed warranty papers. Also, anymore, these blank papers aren't that easy to find. Warranty papers come with almost any item that you purchase - it's a piece-of-mind document. Only collectors place a value on these documents.

[springer]

Originally Posted by bp682

I am relatively new to vintage watches and I have been researching non stop and reading all the threads.

I came across a late 60s 5513 complete with box and papers. Watch looks great and authentic as well as the box and papers. The papers state the model number, but nothing on the papers state the serial number. Based on some research that seems to no be uncommon for that time frame.

I guess my question is, would be be concerned? Do papers without the serial number demand the same premium of those with?

Anything else I should be worried about?

Thank you in advance from a newbie just drinking out of a fire hose.

Ler's see some photos of the front and back of the warranty paper. If genuine, it will add some value but not as much as one with the serial number.

[Dan S]

For partial papers, I have the impression that punched but blank papers are still pretty valuable if the form itself is genuine, because dealers often didn’t fill them out and they are likely legit. But papers filled out except for the serial number just seems weird to me. Although it’s true that if they are genuine and from the right time, they could be legit. After all, if someone wanted to fabricate papers they could just add the serial number by hand.

[bp682]

Originally Posted by springer

Ler's see some photos of the front and back of the warranty paper. If genuine, it will add some value but not as much as one with the serial number.

Here is a photo. The other thing that stands out is that this is a 1.7mm serial which places it at 1967 production, but it was sold in 1970. I know there is always a lag, but just something that stood out.

[CTech]

There are other errors on the guarantee card so that makes me think that it is probably genuine but the sales clerk didn't know how to fill it in correctly, possibly because the dealer didn't sell many Rolex watches.

It's probable that nobody will be able to say definitively whether this is a genuine set of boxes and paperwork original to the watch, or whether it is a put together set, but I am tending towards it all being original.

There are many much more important issues to consider with a purchase like this as the watch, although looking good, is very expensive.

Here it is on chrono24 for about $24,800:

https://www.chrono24.com/rolex/subma...id28379989.htm

[Dan S]

I sure don't like those crown guards. And $25k, OMG.

[bp682]

[QUOTE=CTech;12895934]There are other errors on the guarantee card so that makes me think that it is probably genuine but the sales clerk didn't know how to fill it in correctly, possibly because the dealer didn't sell many Rolex watches.

It's probable that nobody will be able to say definitively whether this is a genuine set of boxes and paperwork original to the watch, or whether it is a put together set, but I am tending towards it all being original.

There are many much more important issues to consider with a purchase like this as the watch, although looking good, is very expensive.

Here it is on chrono24 for about $24,800:

[bp682]

Originally Posted by CTech

There are other errors on the guarantee card so that makes me think that it is probably genuine but the sales clerk didn't know how to fill it in correctly, possibly because the dealer didn't sell many Rolex watches.

It's probable that nobody will be able to say definitively whether this is a genuine set of boxes and paperwork original to the watch, or whether it is a put together set, but I am tending towards it all being original.

There are many much more important issues to consider with a purchase like this as the watch, although looking good, is very expensive.

Here it is on chrono24 for about $24,800:

What issues are you referencing?

My issue with the price is there is no “basis”. I have seen them from 14k-50k. Varying conditions, etc. what would you think a watch like this “should” go for?

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by bp682

What issues are you referencing?

My issue with the price is there is no “basis”. I have seen them from 14k-50k. Varying conditions, etc. what would you think a watch like this “should” go for?

Putting aside the papers, I would be hard-pressed to pay even $14k USD for that watch, especially from an unknown private seller. I don't particularly like the condition of the case, the insert is not original (should be long-5) and the bracelet also doesn't appear to be the correct rivet bracelet. Although it's hard to see the bracelet, it looks like a 6536. Not serviced. And without the serial number on the papers, I don't give them much value. I wouldn't be surprised if it was put together for sale.

[CTech]

Originally Posted by bp682

What issues are you referencing?

My issue with the price is there is no “basis”. I have seen them from 14k-50k. Varying conditions, etc. what would you think a watch like this “should” go for?

CETTE MONTRE No: should have the serial number

CETTE MONTRE No: has the model number

Vendue par: should have the dealer's name, address, etc. printed clearly or stamped

Vendue par: probably has the sales clerk's name first and then some abbreviations of possibly an address. I cannot find any reference to DESARDIN A. being a Rolex dealer, either now or in 1970.

As for value, Dan's comment above ($25k, OMG) is most appropriate. Others might disagree, but I would pay nothing for the papers, boxes, anchor, etc. and would set a value to me based purely on the condition of the watch. This one is no better than many others that sell for around $12k to $15k, so although we are discouraged from giving valuations on the forum, that is roughly what I would pay for this if I wanted a 5513.

This definitely is not a watch I would buy over the Internet without having the opportunity to personally handle it, examine it, try and evaluate how much of it is original, etc.

5513s are not rare and you would do better to look at several in person local to you rather than try and buy one sight unseen from Ireland.

[springer]

The warranty booklet is correct for circa 1970. Does it add value, maybe some - yes, but not a substantial amount.

[bp682]

[QUOTE=bp682;12896062]

Originally Posted by CTech

There are other errors on the guarantee card so that makes me think that it is probably genuine but the sales clerk didn't know how to fill it in correctly, possibly because the dealer didn't sell many Rolex watches.

It's probable that nobody will be able to say definitively whether this is a genuine set of boxes and paperwork original to the watch, or whether it is a put together set, but I am tending towards it all being original.

There are many much more important issues to consider with a purchase like this as the watch, although looking good, is very expensive.

Here it is on chrono24 for about $24,800:

Originally Posted by CTech

CETTE MONTRE No: should have the serial number

CETTE MONTRE No: has the model number

Vendue par: should have the dealer's name, address, etc. printed clearly or stamped

Vendue par: probably has the sales clerk's name first and then some abbreviations of possibly an address. I cannot find any reference to DESARDIN A. being a Rolex dealer, either now or in 1970.

As for value, Dan's comment above ($25k, OMG) is most appropriate. Others might disagree, but I would pay nothing for the papers, boxes, anchor, etc. and would set a value to me based purely on the condition of the watch. This one is no better than many others that sell for around $12k to $15k, so although we are discouraged from giving valuations on the forum, that is roughly what I would pay for this if I wanted a 5513.

This definitely is not a watch I would buy over the Internet without having the opportunity to personally handle it, examine it, try and evaluate how much of it is original, etc.

5513s are not rare and you would do better to look at several in person local to you rather than try and buy one sight unseen from Ireland.

Thank you so much! This is what i am learning. You confirmed, but I am new to all this and just navigating it all.

[Tools]

Condition is paramount.

You should never pay top dollar for an OK watch just because somebody has put together a nice package.

Some common sense and research would need to be done to decide if enough provenance can be found to confirm they are likely original.

Counterfeit papers are as common as counterfeit watches.

[Dan S]

A friend suggested by PM that I should look more closely at the photos in the listing and reconsider my opinion about the bezel insert and bracelet. After blowing up the images, I do think I can see rivets on the bracelet, so I want to revise my opinion on that. Value would obviously depend on whether it is Swiss or C&I.

Honestly, I'm still not 100% on the insert and would like to see a better straight on photo in good lighting. Images taken at an angle can be hard to interpret. In some photos, it does look like a long-5, but not so much in other photos.

If the insert is correct and especially if the bracelet is a Swiss rivet or stretch, that will add significantly to the value, several thousand USD combined. It would still not be a $25k watch IMO.

[TuRo]

Handwritten never as good as punched or the blue or red printing in multi dot warranty c 5 x 3 booklet which are hard to fake esp those with the swirly writing.

If the large submariner 1 fold is french language too, I'm inclined to opine probably original set as box, outer box (but sticker fell off!), the correct very rare early hard plastic light green plastic wallet, french warranty and cigarette looks plausible.

To be honest also as handwritten, I think an unscrupulous type would just write a serial number on it somewhere, the fact they haven't....tilts me towards original.

Having said all that, it's max a £12k loose watch or £14k (with what is an unauditable set) is how I would see it.

[Arnozerosix]

Originally Posted by Dan S

A friend suggested by PM that I should look more closely at the photos in the listing and reconsider my opinion about the bezel insert and bracelet. After blowing up the images, I do think I can see rivets on the bracelet, so I want to revise my opinion on that. Value would obviously depend on whether it is Swiss or C&I.

Honestly, I'm still not 100% on the insert and would like to see a better straight on photo in good lighting. Images taken at an angle can be hard to interpret. In some photos, it does look like a long-5, but not so much in other photos.

If the insert is correct and especially if the bracelet is a Swiss rivet or stretch, that will add significantly to the value, several thousand USD combined. It would still not be a $25k watch IMO.

Crown and Pearl are not original to the watch imo...

[NigeG]

To be fair it does say price negotiable. Start at around 66% lower and it would be worth a much closer look.

Suspect the seller is a chancer who has put together a nice package. Walk away fast


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[tekno]

Not loving that watch. I looked at a couple photos.


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[Arnozerosix]

Originally Posted by NigeG

...

Suspect the seller is a chancer who has put together a nice package...

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same feeling here ....

[springer]

Originally Posted by Arnozerosix

same feeling here ....

It might have been put together...maybe.

But, I would agree with Turo. Rarely do you see a vintage cobbled together set that appears to be correct.

[springer]

Originally Posted by bp682

Here is a photo. The other thing that stands out is that this is a 1.7mm serial which places it at 1967 production, but it was sold in 1970. I know there is always a lag, but just something that stood out.

Three year lag time from the case date to sell date is not uncommon for that era of watch.

[springer]

Originally Posted by Dan S

A friend suggested by PM that I should look more closely at the photos in the listing and reconsider my opinion about the bezel insert and bracelet. After blowing up the images, I do think I can see rivets on the bracelet, so I want to revise my opinion on that. Value would obviously depend on whether it is Swiss or C&I.

Honestly, I'm still not 100% on the insert and would like to see a better straight on photo in good lighting. Images taken at an angle can be hard to interpret. In some photos, it does look like a long-5, but not so much in other photos.

If the insert is correct and especially if the bracelet is a Swiss rivet or stretch, that will add significantly to the value, several thousand USD combined. It would still not be a $25k watch IMO.

It does appear to be a SWISS rivet bracelet in my opinion. I did not see any center holes in the rivets like found on USA rivet bracelets.

[Arnozerosix]

Originally Posted by springer

It might have been put together...maybe.

But, I would agree with Turo. Rarely do you see a vintage cobbled together set that appears to be correct.

very true...