Buying off the Bay

[Ascari_2]

Hi everyone.

Today I thought I'd share a recent experience of buying a Rolex on eBay. For some background, this is far from my first purchase like this. You could say I am a part-time watchsmith and have been working on 4-digit and 5-digit Rolex watches almost exclusively for quite a few years now. My MO is to find find a "diamond in the rough," spend some time "polishing" it, and then either keep it for myself or pass it on to someone to enjoy. So I am rather comfortable around these watches, and it's within that context that I figured that some of you might appreciate seeing some lesser-known details.

Anyhow, the fun begins with me seeing a reasonably priced 1603 with some clear issues right off the bat. The case was not in the best of shapes and there was clearly some stain on the dial. Still, nothing out of the ordinary and at the right price the watch was worth it. Another nice thing was that the watch was just sent out for a full overhaul. So if it's running strong and healthy, all the better, right? More on this to come. So, sure enough, at the end of the auction the watch has my name on it and a week later it arrives at my door.







Upon arrival, the watch does look like it did in the listing and there aren't really any surprises ... at least not yet. Remember how the watch was advertised as being completely overhauled? Well, time to get it on the timegrapher and to see that straight line with an amplitude of 250+. In all honesty I would've been surprised to see these characteristics, but I still hoped that they would be there considering the clear statements of the seller. Well, my gut feeling didn't disappoint. Barely reaching 230 degrees with a slope that Homer Simpson would have a hard time climbing.





Well, certainly not the first time dealing with this. So the watch goes on the bench for a real overhaul this time. And this is where the surprises really start to show up. The movement seems to be drenched in oil in some places. Pulling out the wobbly crown and stem I can tell immediately that there is tons of oil where there shouldn't be. Not only that, but the gasket it absolutely gone, providing no sealing of any kind.









As I get deeper into the movement, it becomes clear that the so-called "complete overhaul" was nothing more than a crystal replacement, potentially new mainspring, and some over-oiling in some arbitrary places. Although thinking about it, the places which have oil seem to be all on the winding side, making it possible (and I speculate now) that the person doing the service was simply trying to provide the user with a smooth winding feel that they might equate with a serviced watch. Looking closely, you can see lots of oil on the barrel bridge between the stem and the silver-colored gear (shouldn't be there). You can also see that gear clearly leaving dirt marks. Not only should you not have this dirt there, you should also not have oil in the gear teeth.







On the flip side, the opposite side of the dial along with the various end-stones are virtually dry. The one place where I would expect to see sign of oil (mechanism which allows you to switch between winding the watch and adjusting the time) looks dry!







But wait, there is more. Checking the cleanliness of the jewels under the scope I was disappointed to see fibers exactly where they would likely catch on the pivots and create unwanted drag.







Still, despite all these disappointments the movement was relatively clean and in good shape.







Oh, and I forgot to mention, one of the dial screws was missing, the case-back gasket was grossly undersized, and the crown tube was barely catching the threads on the crown.





Well, down to the bare bones, I can send the parts through the ultrasonic cleaner. Upon return, the jewels look squeaky clean and the movement is ready to be reassembled.







First goes the mainspring.





Then the rest of the movement starts to take shape, switching between the top and the bottom sides.















Finally, the automatic works.





And here we have a custom DateJust! Now before you wonder why, it's a nice way to put the movement on the watch winder and get the oil into all the right places before installing the dial and hands. But before the oiling is complete, here it is back on the time grapher with an already healthier heartbeat.







While the watch spins for about a day, I tackle the dial and case. Using a secret ingredient, the gunky spot on the dial is gone immediately. Looks absolutely beautiful! Next comes some work on cleaning up the case and the case finish.









All looks good and the next day the final touches are taken care of. All cased up and cleaned up with all new gaskets, the watch is now beating with a much healthier amplitude in the mid 260s.








And now the final product.







Anyhow, hope you all enjoyed this. Moral of the story is, yes, you can find deals on Ebay, but in the long run you usually get what you pay for. Also, despite what anyone tells you about service, unless it's backed up by actual numbers, it's all just words and receipts.

[Black Bay Dan]

Brilliant post. Best one I have seen in years. Thanks.

Dan

[Dr.Smellody]

Excellent work. Looks fantastic. Thanks for sharing.

[RRGHOST1]

A great Post and very informative. Watch looks very nice.

[mray2686]

Really cool to see the process. Thanks for sharing!

[Mk2rick]

loved reading this post! Congrats on the find!

[KY..]

Amazing craftsmanship for a hobby and a beautiful result with the perfect strap!

[Ascari_2]

Thank you all for the kind words.

Originally Posted by KY..

Amazing craftsmanship for a hobby and a beautiful result with the perfect strap!

This is what happens when an engineer takes up a hobby that deals with mechanical things. The beautify of it is that I am not on the clock. So spending an extra 4 or 5 hours to get things done right doesn't impact anything and only brings a sense of satisfaction of knowing that something works as intended. It also helps to know that the next owner will really have the opportunity to enjoy the watch even if he doesn't know everything that's gone into making it run right.

[Styles Bitchley]

Love this post.

[joli160]

Great post, thank you.
That watch came out beautiful.

[piratfisk]

Excellent post & narrative. Nicely put & detailed pics. Thanks for sharing.

[TimeLord2]

Really enjoyed your post! Thank you. A question for you.

I am not familiar with how the Timegrapher actually works but do know that rate is a function of ± 86,400 seconds in a day, amplitude is a measure of the power of the movement, and beat error somewhat related to rate. At least I think that's how it goes. Anyways, my question. In the second reading you took, and say it is already showing a stronger heartbeat, the first three values all indicate +22. Why? I am more familiar with the 3rd and final Timegrapher image you post with +1 for Rate, Amplitude, and Beat Error. Although, I am not sure why it would even register a +1 for Amplitude anyways.

If this is a little too much to explain, I do understand. That said, it does look lovely and clearly functions as intended now. Great strap too. Well done!

[Pacha]

Thank you for the education and entertainment. Excellent post.

[KY..]

Originally Posted by Ascari_2

Thank you all for the kind words.

This is what happens when an engineer takes up a hobby that deals with mechanical things. The beautify of it is that I am not on the clock. So spending an extra 4 or 5 hours to get things done right doesn't impact anything and only brings a sense of satisfaction of knowing that something works as intended. It also helps to know that the next owner will really have the opportunity to enjoy the watch even if he doesn't know everything that's gone into making it run right.

Haha..
Picked up on your meticulous analyzation and your methodical yet detailed problem solving.
Takes one to know one some times…Excellent thread

[Ascari_2]

Originally Posted by TimeLord2

Really enjoyed your post! Thank you. A question for you.

I am not familiar with how the Timegrapher actually works but do know that rate is a function of ± 86,400 seconds in a day, amplitude is a measure of the power of the movement, and beat error somewhat related to rate. At least I think that's how it goes. Anyways, my question. In the second reading you took, and say it is already showing a stronger heartbeat, the first three values all indicate +22. Why? I am more familiar with the 3rd and final Timegrapher image you post with +1 for Rate, Amplitude, and Beat Error. Although, I am not sure why it would even register a +1 for Amplitude anyways.

If this is a little too much to explain, I do understand. That said, it does look lovely and clearly functions as intended now. Great strap too. Well done!

Dirty watches can give you all kinds of odd errors. In this case, if the balance wheel is not rotating as well as it should, not only could it result in a lower degree of rotation, but the rate of rotation can also slow down (i.e., imaging the balance rotating slower because you have old gunky oil slowing down the pivots). This will cause a slowdown in the overall rate of the watch. On the other hand when the balance wheel spins well and without significant hindrance from the pallet fork, it can not only achieve greater degree of rotation, but it can also rotate from end to end quicker, leading to both a higher amplitude number and a quicker rate. It's also worth mentioning that there are some intermediate steps that I left out. This is stuff that deals specifically with the process of lubrication where I apply epilame to the pallet stones and escape teeth, run the movement for a while to clear the contact points, clean out the stones and teeth, and apply the oil only after all that. This just gets a bit too detailed and probably not something that an average forumer wants to read. But you can also get some funny readings from the grapher especially at first where the epilate has not worn off the contact points between the escape wheel and the pallet fork, creating some drag between those points which translates to time grapher numbers that are sure to change with time. That's why you see a 20 degree change in amplitude between the moment that the movement was first reassembled and the final product.

[996marty]

Great post and love your work

[daveo5]

Great post, detailing your knowledge of the workings of a watch movement, and what it takes to really dissemble, clean, and reassemble a movement. Excellent photography.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[baumare]

Great informative post, thank you for sharing your passion!
Looks like spraying some W40 down the stem won't do the trick

[Ascari_2]

Originally Posted by baumare

Great informative post, thank you for sharing your passion!
Looks like spraying some W40 down the stem won't do the trick

Lol, thanks that gave me a chuckle. BTW, the buyer did indicate in the original post that he had the watch serviced and didn't do it himself. After I reached out to let him know that he might want to switch watchsmiths, he mentioned that he was charged $750 for this lube-job. Talk about being taken advantage of. Only reason to charge someone that much is if you're changing out some not-inexpensive parts. But $750 for a dash of Crisco is downright dirty.

[LAS45]

Great post. Thanks for sharing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[swaini3]

Nice one.... Thanks for sharing

[hutch300]

Awesome! Love seeing some content like this on the forum!

[Filipão]

Thorough, informative and, above all, true. Thanks for sharing your experience.

"Recent service" advertised is unfortunately many times a lure.

I've bought one late 5513 from Commit Ginza in Tokyo, Japan that was not keeping time and had allegedly a 2022 service... but it had many issues!

The day I received it from Japan I had to send to William Rice Watches adding up to the price paid for the watch - now over my budget.

(Rice had to replace two movement wheels - worn pivots - and two automatic reversing wheels + a new TrueDome T19 and a pressure test was done)

How can one trust reputable sellers nowadays?

[Ascari_2]

Originally Posted by Filipão

Thorough, informative and, above all, true. Thanks for sharing your experience.

"Recent service" advertised is unfortunately many times a lure.

I've bought one late 5513 from Commit Ginza in Tokyo, Japan that was not keeping time and had allegedly a 2022 service... but it had many issues!

The day I received it from Japan I had to send to William Rice Watches adding up to the price paid for the watch - now over my budget.

(Rice had to replace two movement wheels - worn pivots - and two automatic reversing wheels + a new TrueDome T19 and a pressure test was done)

How can one trust reputable sellers nowadays?

That's a beautiful case! But I agree that for most people, the lack of service can really be an issue. Basically when buying I expect that a service will need to be performed regardless of what the buyer states. On a number of occasions I have been pleasantly surprised, but it doesn't happen often. Still, it is much easier for someone like me, who almost always has a 1570 or a 3035 in pieces on the workbench, to pull a trigger and deal with the consequences later, than for a typical buyer who may be out another $400-$700 on top of the cost of the watch.

In this case, though, it goes even one step further. It was clear that someone did "try to service" it. Just boggles the mind how a smith would do such shoddy work.

[Filipão]

Originally Posted by Ascari_2

In this case, though, it goes even one step further. It was clear that someone did "try to service" it. Just boggles the mind how a smith would do such shoddy work.

Thanks for the kind words.

This is the caseback, picture taken from the Commit Ginza advert...

[rootbeer7]

What a fantastic post. Thank you so much.

[Ascari_2]

And I just bought another one

Someone please help this addiction!

[Filipão]

Originally Posted by Ascari_2

And I just bought another one

Way to go!

[TimeLord2]

Originally Posted by Ascari_2

Dirty watches can give you all kinds of odd errors. In this case, if the balance wheel is not rotating as well as it should, not only could it result in a lower degree of rotation, but the rate of rotation can also slow down (i.e., imaging the balance rotating slower because you have old gunky oil slowing down the pivots). This will cause a slowdown in the overall rate of the watch. On the other hand when the balance wheel spins well and without significant hindrance from the pallet fork, it can not only achieve greater degree of rotation, but it can also rotate from end to end quicker, leading to both a higher amplitude number and a quicker rate. It's also worth mentioning that there are some intermediate steps that I left out. This is stuff that deals specifically with the process of lubrication where I apply epilame to the pallet stones and escape teeth, run the movement for a while to clear the contact points, clean out the stones and teeth, and apply the oil only after all that. This just gets a bit too detailed and probably not something that an average forumer wants to read. But you can also get some funny readings from the grapher especially at first where the epilate has not worn off the contact points between the escape wheel and the pallet fork, creating some drag between those points which translates to time grapher numbers that are sure to change with time. That's why you see a 20 degree change in amplitude between the moment that the movement was first reassembled and the final product.

Thank you very much for the very detailed response, which admittedly, I understood maybe half. Not a skill I'm likely to develop at this point but can appreciate those that have. Well played sir…

[Toronto Soup King]

Wow, great work. And THANK YOU for posting the adventure - I think those are some of the best service pics I've seen anywhere.